Kelsey Taylor (00:00)
Welcome to the Working Enneagram YouTube channel where we talk about the Enneagram in the context of work. I am your host, Kelsey Taylor, and our goal today for today's conversation is that you would walk away saying, I learned something about myself that I didn't know before, or I learned something about another Enneagram type, hopefully the type 9 that I didn't know before. And if you can say yes to one or both of those questions, then I think our time has been very well spent together.
Sara (00:00)
Mm.
Curtis Cummings (00:22)
No.
Kelsey Taylor (00:30)
Today's episode is about the communication style for the Ennegram Type 9. So I have brought with me Curtis and Sarah, both of whom I think will do a phenomenal job of speaking honestly to the Type 9. So Curtis, Sarah, welcome to the show.
Sara (00:46)
Thank you so much. So excited. Me too. I know. Hey buddy.
Curtis Cummings (00:47)
Thank you. So glad to be here. Sarah, good to see you again.
Kelsey Taylor (00:55)
I am so excited to have you both. It's gonna be a lot of fun. And before we jump in, I want to give an overview of the Annegram type 9. And I would describe nines, ⁓ they're known as the peacekeepers, and I would describe them as steady, accepting, very supportive. I think they value harmony ⁓ and comfort connection with other people. I think they want harmony.
Sara (00:55)
Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (01:22)
Externally and internally. So they want to feel at peace with themselves. They want to have peace in their environment and the people around them. I would say nines have a very calming presence that helps other people feel safe and understood. under stress, I think they can become maybe a little voidant, maybe passive, disconnected from themselves, maybe disconnected from other people. And at their best, I think nines are they're grounded, inclusive.
And I think they're reassuring, deeply reassuring. So, ⁓ Curtis, anything you would add to that? Anything you would change?
Curtis Cummings (01:59)
No, I think the podcast is over. Thanks. You've described it really, really well. ⁓ no and nothing nothing I would ask that or nothing I would add. That was beautiful. and I can really resonate with a lot of those in my daily life and my life at work, for sure.
Sara (02:05)
Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (02:14)
Love it. That's awesome. Sarah, anything you would add or change?
Sara (02:15)
Yeah. Yeah. Same.
No, I I mean I love the list. I think it's honest, ⁓ both the
positive or the less healthy behaviors that we can do. And I I know we'll go into all of that also. So that that list resonates. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (02:34)
Awesome.
I love it. All right, Curtis, I want to start with you and I want to hear a little bit more about what you do for work and what you're enjoying about your job right now.
Curtis Cummings (02:46)
Yeah, thank you so much. ⁓ so I work in the tech sector at IBM ⁓ as part of the innovation studio team. So we basically work with ⁓ account teams and sellers to help ⁓ bring in clients for technology briefing engagements. ⁓ and then I also ⁓ have ⁓ my practice, which is from solid ground, where I help men ⁓ tap into
who they are as a person so they can show up more clear for everyone else. and at work, you know, from a day-to-day perspective, I am constantly working in a team. So I think that talking today about the communication style is really interesting to me because I want to know how I show up and I want to know how others show up as well ⁓ and what I can do better. So ⁓ yeah, thanks for having me.
Kelsey Taylor (03:37)
Yeah, I love it. That is a phenomenal introduction. Thank you. What would you say you're enjoying most about your job right now?
Curtis Cummings (03:45)
Hmm.
⁓ I enjoy the different roles coming together to perform a common goal. So whenever we run an engagement, we ⁓ typically are working with several different types of people. So ⁓ as a nine, I think I do that really well because I can see all different points of view and communication styles and kind of bring those together.
⁓ as a team. So it's really about ⁓ making sure that the ⁓ things that we're doing are all laddering up to a common goal. ⁓ that's what I really enjoy the most.
Kelsey Taylor (04:25)
Yeah, that's phenomenal. Very on brand for a nine, I feel like, to see multiple perspectives and communication styles. So I love it. Thanks, Curtis. All right, Sarah, tell me about what you do for work and what you're enjoying most right now.
Curtis Cummings (04:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sara (04:35)
Yeah. Love what you do.
Love hearing about what you do, Curtis. I've like five qu follow follow up questions. ⁓ well what I I've been a yoga and meditation teacher for about eighteen years. I have my masters in yoga instruction and a bunch of different certifications in there. I love what I do. I love it, love it. ⁓ yoga found me, I feel like when I was in a really ⁓
critical point in just my own journey. So I feel like it comes from a space of love ⁓ for these practices and how they can help us heal and become more whole. And recently in the last ⁓ I'd say like six years, I've been teaching Enneagram and so I blend Enneagram wisdom with body work, with breath work. So I do that one-on-one with people. I do it in small group settings.
⁓ mostly right now ⁓ or groups bring me in to do it. And what we sort of do is like I will cater that if it's a one-on-one client, we'll do breath work or we'll do movement, we'll just sort of see what that ⁓ person is really working with or needing from the session. So I just love so much showing up for those people ⁓ whether it's
A married couple who's doing it individually or together to like just I absolutely love working with people and I guess helping, but not helping in like this shallow way. Like it feels like it's helping give skills where they are able to help themselves, I suppose. Like it's it feels less about me and more about the Enigram and yoga basic or breath work meditation. So
I just feel like these are modalities that all heal and help both myself and whoever I'm working with. I love doing it so much. what do I love most about it? ⁓ I guess I love the connection I feel with people, both when I teach, I teach public yoga classes also. So it's like I just love the honor of someone engaging in that work, and I see how difficult that can be and like what a choice that is for someone to
enter into whatever work it is, whether it's enneegram or yoga. And so there's such an honor of like my responsibility in that too of holding space for whatever they're going through. So I guess I love the connection that it offers with other people and humans. And I I just feel like people are going through so much whatever it is. So if I can be part of that healing journey, that's what I love the most.
along with that, I call myself a householder where I ⁓ I
kind of manage our life as a family. I have a husband and daughter and ⁓ and then I have a part-time job that I do from home also in healthcare. So I kind of wear a lot of hats. And then I also walk a dog for a little side job. So I feel like that's pretty nine. Like it's a little chaotic but yet it all makes sense. And I think it has to do a lot with like what we'll talk about with like even nines have these ⁓ like issues often with prioritizing or
⁓ committing to too many things, perhaps. And so like I even hear myself, I'm like, Okay, that's a lot, that's a lot of jobs, but somehow it all works. And ⁓ I love it. So yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (08:10)
That's phenomenal. And so beautiful with specifically with the any grim work that you're doing to bring healing to other people. I love that. ⁓ I've got a few follow-up questions and I don't I don't even know that I know where to start ⁓ because there's so many good things that you were talking about. Okay, I'm here's my question for you. Do you find that there is
Sara (08:24)
Okay.
Kelsey Taylor (08:35)
A specific Enneagram type that comes to you that is more frequent than some of the other Enneagram types? Like, do you see more nines? Do you see more sixes?
Sara (08:46)
So far no. ⁓ I can tell you that I don't see yet. do you want me to tell you who I don't see yet? okay. ⁓ I guess I haven't had any seven clients yet. And I think that's the only type that I haven't had yet. Like one on one clients. Yeah, yeah, I think that's the only type.
Kelsey Taylor (08:54)
Yes, I do.
Sara (09:14)
But everything else is pretty scattered across the other types.
Kelsey Taylor (09:18)
Okay, that's fascinating.
Sara (09:19)
Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (09:21)
Question for you both, because Curtis, you have ⁓ you're wearing two hats also. Sarah, you're wearing multiple hats. Is that nine or do you feel like that is your line to three showing up? Sarah, you go first.
Sara (09:38)
I feel like I draw from three at work profoundly. Profoundly. So I I feel like when I teach, for instance, especially in front of people, well, everything's in front of people. I I feel a very big connection with three. And what that feels like for me is confidence. And I feel like balanced with ground like I feel very present and grounded when I'm teaching, or like right now, I don't
Like even when Curtis was sharing what he was doing, I feel so zoned in and focused that I forget that I have to talk after you. so I do have notes today because I I don't do that great because I'm like, ⁓ you know. So and I work with notes a lot too. Not when I teach yoga or body work, but when I teach Enneagram I do or coach. ⁓ so yeah, I I would say I draw from three.
Curtis Cummings (10:20)
Yeah.
Sara (10:35)
with and it helps me feel confident and not self-question or not worry about how I'm coming across. Like I feel very in flow when I'm teaching and not focused on myself. It's just what I'm doing. What do you what do you do? What do you feel, Curtis, about that?
Curtis Cummings (10:53)
Yeah, I'm I share it ⁓ as well. I show up with ⁓ a lot of draw from three ⁓ it at work, ⁓ and in my men's work, ⁓ where I have to really focus and be present ⁓ and confident. ⁓ the interesting thing is that I can feel myself going into low side nine when that dissipates because there is a threshold for me.
⁓ especially during the day, I might have a eight hour engagement. And at some points I'm losing interest and I'm checking my phone or checking email or doing other things because ⁓ I've lost that ⁓ that presence of being very ⁓ in it with them. And I think that when I truly feel confident in that and strong in that, I am ⁓
drawing from those three qualities, the high side three qualities for sure. And I find it more in my men's work than I do in my corporate job. So and it's really it's it's a lot easier for me to maintain an hour of focus on one specific individual, one specific thing, rather than multi hours on multi things. ⁓ and it's a lot harder as a nine, I think. I don't know if that resonates with you.
Sara (12:17)
Definitely. I also identify as an introvert too, so there's a there's a capacity for how much I can output anyway. And then when you combine that with nineness too, it's interesting. ⁓ I feel like with an other focused like job like you have with both your jobs, it sounds like. ⁓ does that sound like a draw from three Kelsey to you? Like from your opinion? ⁓
When you hear us talk about that, or what do you what do you hear?
Kelsey Taylor (12:52)
Yeah, that's a great question. I hear a lot of different things going on. So Sarah's wearing multiple hats and Curtis is wearing two hats. And there is an element of three to me that does that. A lot of threes are like, I do this and I do this. And then I also do this. It's also I I hear a lot from sevens ⁓ who who do that as well, like have multiple hats that they're wearing. I don't think it's an ex exclusively a three thing, but just curious if that may have been ⁓
Sara (13:09)
Okay.
Kelsey Taylor (13:21)
that line that connects you guys. So that's that's where my mind went. Yeah.
Sara (13:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I love that.
I th I think my mind also goes to being in the doing triad where I I really like to do and of course I can just do a little more. sure I can walk your dog. Sure I can do like, yeah. So I just that that kind of comes to mind too. That it's it's probably a lot of a nine thing too with just
that fo that like center of intelligence for us. ⁓ yeah. But then I'm then it's like, can I do that? And that's where that downfall of can I do this with excellence or well or did I overcommit? Like all those things come into play with what we'll probably get into. Sometimes we can have a struggle with direct communication. ⁓ trying to do too many things can be s a downfall at least for me as a as a nine.
Kelsey Taylor (14:22)
Curtis do you resonate with that too, trying to do too many things.
Curtis Cummings (14:26)
Yeah, it's I I have to well I I find myself doing too many things that don't matter. ⁓ so I so I have to really consciously ⁓ you know ask myself, is this how you want to spend your time right now? ⁓ I don't know if I do that very well yet, but I'm getting there. And ⁓ and what's interesting is
Sara (14:32)
It's so fair.
Okay.
Curtis Cummings (14:56)
⁓ when I start doing for myself, which is not necessarily I I think is a big draw from three because nines are are necessarily ⁓ self-forgetting. But when I'm actually doing for myself, I am more fulfilled. ⁓ and that causes some disruption to others because maybe others are used to me doing for them. and when I let those things go and
almost like ⁓ let other colleagues kind of fail to learn a little bit instead of rescue them and do for them ⁓ because I'm concentrated on my fulfillment, my needs, my purpose. ⁓ it actually makes me feel better, way better. ⁓ breaking through that kind of harm harmony barrier that we've built for ourselves as a nine.
Kelsey Taylor (15:53)
I love that. It's beautiful growth, I feel like, for a nine. ⁓ yeah, I love it. Okay, so my favorite question to ask anybody is how do you know what your type is? So for example, I know I'm a one because one time when I was young, I learned about drugs and how they're bad for you. And that became a very moral rule for me to follow. And my mom smoked, and I was like, that's bad for her.
Sara (15:56)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (16:22)
So I threw her ⁓ cigarettes down the toilet and she was so mad, you guys. She was so mad. But there's an element, I think, to being a one that that's one way I know. that moral ⁓ element and that rule setting element. So Curtis, how do you know that you are a type nine?
Sara (16:29)
I love that.
Curtis Cummings (16:44)
Hmm. Well, because my whole life I've deferred to others ⁓ and haven't really held a strong opinion about where to go eat or ⁓ what to do next, or even about my own kind of purpose in life. ⁓ and so ⁓ I've really had to work at that, but but all along the way, ⁓ everything that has been written about a nine.
falling asleep to self, deferring to others, you know, inner harmony, and conflict avoidant is so up my alley. I can point to several examples of that when I I was a child. ⁓ but it's really today, it's more about instinct with that. So those those four that I mentioned are very instinctual that I have to kind of work to override.
And I'll feel them on a daily basis. So ⁓ that's how I know I'm benign is because I've got to really consciously like look at that and break through that ⁓ to get to a like j just a better, healthier version of me. but it's more instinctual. I I don't know, Sarah, if that if that resonates with you. Is it instinctual for you?
Sara (18:03)
I like the word intuition is like or instinct is just like a sounding the ⁓ like it feels like really big in what you just said and in my experience of how n I know I'm a nine also. I every single thing Curtis said, I could say yes to my own personal story of that in my life. The
The thing that I feel is the most honest for me to start with, even though it feels like ⁓ about knowing I'm a nine, is that lost childhood message of your presence matters. I I that follows me everywhere. Even though I've been in therapy for consistent therapy ⁓ for over 15 years, and I still do therapy.
And have really healthy relationshi like, you know, I'm working on Ennegram stuff. I teach yoga meditation. It's still, it, it's, it's there. So believing my presence matters ⁓ is is a huge part of how I just absolutely know I'm I'm a nine because I don't believe that basically if people are listening. ⁓ or I'll be like, I know, I know. But like if I'm really honest, like below the surface in my personal work and growth is
believing that at a core level or trusting it at a core level is probably a truer word to say. ⁓ so that comes to mind. And then intuition is how I absolutely I feel so bodily centered in in everything. For instance, like my memories are very spatial. I know when I had a conversation like ⁓ Kelsey and I took a walk one time and I can I can
I can be in my body and remember our walk and what we talked about and even land points, b it's just my body has memories. So that's like one example, but all my memories are just bodily. and then I just feel like there's so much with that too, where there's ⁓ so much beneath the surface of being a body type where it's like intuition or wisdom feels wordless to me.
Where I it's very difficult for me to communicate often because it's an inner knowing or s or something it again, I can't even describe it well because it just feels ⁓ impossible to describe being in the body triad sometimes. so those things came to mind. ⁓ how I know I'm a nine, and then also with touching on what you touched on, Curtis, with how much
Kelsey Taylor (20:43)
Yeah.
Sara (20:53)
conflict, perceived conflict or unrest in a relationship affects me. It's it's it's too much. Like, so that's how I know because of it I understand that then I make choices subconsciously or consciously to avoid that feeling. And so those things add up to without a doubt
I know I'm a nine I've questioned it. I held it loosely of like several times going through different things and I always that was the only number that fit. So yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (21:30)
That's good.
Thank you. That's super helpful, super insightful. Curtis, do you have body memory?
Sara (21:35)
Okay.
Yeah, do you?
Curtis Cummings (21:40)
I don't have body memory, but I definitely when we were mentioning the the doing and kind of getting back to doing ⁓ purposefully earlier, ⁓ one of the things that resonates with me as a nine is I have to be doing movement ⁓ to kind of get to that present state, whether it's like walking around or
⁓ doing something that that might be bilateral. And I know that that's that term has been used for other numbers in the past as well. But ⁓ for me, I zone out and start getting in my head when I'm just typing. That's not enough. ⁓ which is very difficult in the workplace because in today's world, that's a lot of what we do on a daily basis, especially in the tech sector. So I
I really enjoy my job right now because it's actually running an event facility. I have to actually get up and walk around and make sure people have what they need and and things like that and put on engagements while standing up. So that's more fulfilling to me than just typing. ⁓ and ⁓ was miserable in other roles in the past when I had to do that. So that's where I feel it in my body as far as being a nine is when I can.
invoke my body to do things, whether it's strength training or even in the workplace, ⁓ I'm in a better state.
Kelsey Taylor (23:15)
Yeah, that's so fascinating. That's good. Thank you both. Very, very helpful. Very insightful. Very good. ⁓ okay. I want to touch on something that y'all said and just thank you both for bringing it up. ⁓ it's it's you're wiring, essentially. And that's how you know you're nine are these elements of nineness that you never really overcome. They are they're how you're wired, but
Sara (23:18)
It is
Kelsey Taylor (23:43)
there's awareness that comes with that and then you can work through that. And so I'm paraphrasing a little bit of what about what you were saying. But I think it's helpful for all of us to know you never you never outrun your core motivations. You never outrun your wiring. But you can become self-aware and work on ⁓ what it looks like to grow. So I appreciate y'all both speaking to that in your own individual ways. Thank you guys.
Sara (24:12)
Yeah. I can I chime in too. I feel like that is such a communal like thing too, is like co-regulation w in that way. I would my word would be like co-regulating where that draw from six, for instance, is so important for us as nine. So that's our stress move. But that's where w I
Kelsey Taylor (24:13)
All right. Please.
Sara (24:38)
I feel like so much of my healing has come from is that other like sharing d hard things or letting other people speak to me. So you're building that trust, like knowing my presence matters, for instance. If I go back to that, letting people remind me that is true, like safe people that I can share those things with. ⁓ and I know we're talking about work context, so obviously that's not always appropriate in a work setting. but
those issues affect our work and how we show up at work. So ⁓ yeah, I just think that as Suzanne says, solitary work that can't be done alone. I hundred percent agree with Enneagram stuff. It's we need that mirror for other people, especially nines. I feel like the word witness is like a really key word for me as a nine where I feel like nines really require
beautiful safe witnessing from other people because we don't see our value intrinsically. We don't see our gifts. Like
even this morning I was talking with ⁓ someone that was talking to me about business stuff. And it was almost like I'd never heard like I was hearing that for the first time, even though it's not the first time I've heard them speak about what I do with work. ⁓ but it that remind it's like we have amnesia about ourselves kind of. So that self forgetting
kind of goes to that deeper level and then if you add in some of the other things we struggle with, it's like, yeah, there's a lot of need for community for for nines and for safe witnessing. Yeah. What do you think about that, Curtis, and your journey as a nine?
Curtis Cummings (26:17)
Yeah, I mean what it brought up for me was ⁓ your statement about reassurance. And yes, I I believe that that is important for nines. What's interesting is I've done a lot of growth work over the past year or so. And before I started doing internal growth work, ⁓ whenever I had reassurance or ⁓ compliments or feedback, positive feedback.
I always felt like it wasn't deserved or wasn't warranted or it wasn't special. ⁓ it wasn't unique, right? I always thought, well, anybody could do this job, right? Or do this thing. And ⁓ and it took me a while to understand that, okay, well, if that's an inherent nine thing, ⁓ you know, hard wiring that I have, well, then I need to adjust ⁓ my feelings toward it.
And my growth was to understand ⁓ and truly believe that my presence matters, not somebody else telling me that my presence matters, but truly believing that inherently for myself. ⁓ and that's when the growth like really started happening for a nine. It's really hard to get to. There's a lot of things that I had to clear underneath all of that. But but now when I
get positive feedback at work, it's like a p pat on my back. I don't need it anymore, but it is like a a a pat and and it's it's kind of like, well yeah, I I am awesome. You know, I I can do this really well. Like I am the best for this particular thing. and just giving myself that positive reinforcement adds to just that that sturdy, solid ⁓ foundation that I think is super important for ⁓ for our nines.
Sara (27:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Curtis Cummings (28:15)
when they have
Sara (28:16)
Curtis, thank you for saying that because I hundred percent agree. And the more resourced I feel with like like the type of therapy I do, we work on like self-energy is what it's called. and that so that sturdiness or like that ⁓ inner resourcing, I kind of think of it that way. ⁓ that
I fully agree with everything you're saying where like the situation I described this more now is like, yeah, I yeah, I am really good at my job. Thank you. Like, thank you for reminding me of that. And but it didn't feel like it just was water off a duck's back type of thing too, where it slides off, it like feels like it settles somewhere. Whereas I agree with you, younger Sarah, it was I thought people were just kind of BSing me a lot or like anyone could do whatever. ⁓
But hopefully, you know, the healthier I get, the healthier we all get. ⁓ yeah, those compliments have somewhere to land, I guess is what I'm hearing you say, and what my experience also is, if there is that inner belief and resourcing of like, I am okay, even if no one says I'm okay or everyone is mad at me or I failed at this or this, and so just that.
Curtis Cummings (29:24)
No.
Sara (29:41)
that grounded I I guess that groundedness, it's like we can come across grounded, but like ⁓ an actually grounded nine in in the midst of conflict, for instance, or in the midst of disagreement of any any kind really is is really what I'm going for. And I think it's helped me where I feel like I'm almost someone that
Curtis Cummings (29:47)
Mm-hmm.
Sara (30:09)
It's not that I run towards conflict, but I do kind of run towards conflict resolution now. So I feels I feel like I can bring that because I I I trust myself in what I'm like able to bring to a relationship where it's almost like I bring up conflict more than my spouse who identifies as innate often. So ⁓ 'cause I just wanna like
Yeah. So anyway, I don't know if if that resonates with ⁓ what you're saying about being healthy within. ⁓ I love what you shared so much.
Curtis Cummings (30:52)
Yeah, I love that you said we can appear grounded. And there's a lot of self denial with nines and we can come across as grounded or present. ⁓ there's there's a sense of shape shifting is kind of what I like to call it, which is very ⁓ instinctual for a nine to
to shift into whatever the moment calls for or whoever the person that I'm interacting with wants me to be in that moment, which is actually a form of denial. ⁓ and it's a, it's the I've had I've experienced that time and time again where ⁓ at the end of the day, I just don't feel like my ⁓ true presence was present, right? It was kind of a false self
projecting, ⁓ even in the workplace and even in communication styles. and I have to be really careful of that because if I'm low resourced or if I've got some anger boiling up, we haven't talked about anger yet, but nines are passive angry. ⁓ if I have some of that boiling up, then I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna fall asleep to that that strong presence and shape shift. ⁓
Sara (32:06)
Yeah, we have that.
Curtis Cummings (32:19)
Which at the end of the day I just don't feel right with. ⁓ and so if there's days where I'm just drained, it's probably because I haven't been my true self that day. ⁓ so I have to check in on that as well.
Kelsey Taylor (32:35)
Beautifully said. Mm-hmm.
Sara (32:36)
I love that. That is
I feel that with specific there's there is some s there are some specific groups that I have that drained feeling because I know that I and perhaps my true self isn't really welcome there. So I think in a space you can't be authentic, that is very draining for a nine. yeah, it's just
Yeah, so I I get that. I haven't I I I want to think about that even more and even I think that was like my one of my ponderings when we were prepar when I was preparing for this too was my heart was to be able to communicate well about the interior benign and just knowing that is a thing that happens to us, Curtis, where some like
c like can we be present and then communicate is like step two. So ⁓ yeah. So I I feel really present with you guys in this conversation and ⁓ like I love this topic, but I I love what you said about that, Curtis. That's really that's really well said and honest.
Curtis Cummings (33:35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
The irony is that most people want nines to be truly authentic. And nines don't feel like they can be truly authentic because it might ⁓ harm some inner peace or cause some conflict. So because we're naturally conflict avoidant and we don't want to break that inner peace, because that's our, you know, that's our motivation. ⁓ we
Sara (33:55)
Right.
Curtis Cummings (34:20)
aren't authentic. And so it's really it's it it's it's an ironic like catch 22 because you're either ⁓ you know kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't, type of of mentality and approach to the world. And when you when I have broken through that and not shapeshifted and been truly authentic, I might cause some ripples along the way, but I need to be okay with that because the end result has been a hundred times better.
than what it could have been. So
Sara (34:51)
Okay. Yep. So well said.
Kelsey Taylor (34:52)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yes, truly. Y'all, I'm getting like pumped up when I hear you say, I ⁓ yes, I am good at this. I am good at this. I'm like, that is so psychologically healthy for a nine. It makes me happy. And ⁓ Sarah, hearing you say I'm chasing conflict resolution is phenomenal. I love that.
Sara (35:04)
Yay.
Okay. Okay, good.
Curtis Cummings (35:16)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey Taylor (35:18)
I I'm gonna transition over to communication style. And I have heard the type 9 communication style be described as very calm, patient, and sometimes meandering. So Curtis, what would you add? Do you agree, disagree?
Curtis Cummings (35:40)
I would I would agree with those and usually, and I'm doing it now, usually it's because we're thinking and processing. And it's been said in the past that nines are perpetual processors. And so we'll we'll process communication forever. ⁓ even a conversation that has ended a week ago, I'm still processing it. So I think that that's where the patient.
kind of comes in because it it looks like we're being patient, but really we're just thinking ⁓ and and you know processing through the the conversation ⁓ or the communication. and then I would also ⁓ add that we are ⁓ habitual agreers because we can see all sides. So we might so we might agree in the moment
And that doesn't mean that we truly agree. It just means that we're agreeing to have a conversation about it, or we're agreeing of what's happening in the conversation. and then we might come back to you with something different, and it's like, well, I didn't pull that away from the conversation at all. Like, how'd you get there? But I don't know. That's that's something I find myself doing. What about you, Sarah?
Sara (36:38)
Ha ha.
⁓ I I like yes, what you just said. did you say perpetual processors? Was it is that the word okay. ⁓ I love that. I'm gonna use that. yes, because and so what I when I first heard that we were meandering, that's how we come across, I bristle at that a little bit because I don't want to be annoying. ⁓ and
Yet I understand it's how people are impacted by us because we are thinking about there's like s there's several routes that we're going down or we just want to explain maybe what we were processing. So I I think that's true and I apologize for when it's annoying to other people. but what I wanted to add too is that when someone
pushes me to make a decision or communicate quickly, that is when my anger can skyrocket and blow. ⁓ so in the work setting too, it is a great idea to allow some sort of processing time. Like even if there's going to be a meeting, I like when people tell me what the meeting's going to be about. ⁓ I like a heads up. I that so I think that goes into kind of how
Maybe that's I guess maybe that's your next question. I don't know about how to communicate with the nine, but I wanted to just say, like, yeah, if I get pushed too quickly or I don't have time, then I'm gonna blow. And that's where my anger comes out real quick. ⁓ and then I think that the calm study is like for sure probably my norm, but I also I think that we can
get kind of frantic too and that anger can come out with sort of ⁓ anxiousness and like doing things too fast for me sometimes where I just want to get it done. ⁓ like especially at work where it's it it needs I need that like step back and like what Curtis said earlier like wait, is this what I'm supposed to be doing right now? ⁓ so I think that
⁓ communication style but for sure it can be calm and steady, but it it can also be really heated and really angry. ⁓ that anger can for sure come out. And then there is absolutely regret immediately. And I don't love that. so yeah, I think that's I I just absolutely prefer time to be able to think about things ⁓ so that I can bring what I actually feel and think and then
Kelsey Taylor (39:37)
Mm-hmm.
Sara (39:42)
Same thing with what you were saying, Curtis. I agree with that where an idea will sound amazing, but then when I actually step back and think about it, if I do change my mind, like that's a really tricky space where then I feel like I'm gonna create conflict by changing my mind or taking in more information. So all those it's just I'm even hearing myself, I'm just like, I I feel like we're I feel like nines are more layered humans than people give us credit for sometimes. Like
Often the the memes that nines get where it's like this very shallow, it's all good type of thing. And I do not feel like that as a person. I feel quite complicated inside and I feel hard to understand and because I feel it's hard for me to communicate how I truly think about something or what I'm so yes, so I do think that goes into communication style that
I'm trying to work on how I communicate with people, being more direct. ⁓ this is what I also wanted to say with communication style at work, at least for me. If I already said this, let me know. But it is, I need to understand what you need from me very clearly so that I can not worry about it. If it's if it's like not
Clear expectations, I do not do well with that. I will meet expectations. I don't know if that's more my one wing ⁓ or if that's also a nine thing. Let me know what you think, Curtis. But I don't like when it's ambiguous. I like to know exactly what I can do. ⁓ and it will bring down that stubbornness also for me to not like not get stubborn or just not do a thing or something. What what do you think about that?
Curtis Cummings (41:31)
Yeah. Yeah, can Kelsey, can we go to ⁓ how to communicate better with us in the workplace? Cause I've got some thoughts there. Yeah, so Sarah, I ⁓ I agree with you and I I like expectations too, I like agendas. not from a procedural perspective, like maybe Kelsey a one would, right? It's more so how does this affect me and what gift can I give to
Kelsey Taylor (41:37)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Sara (41:38)
Yes. Okay, great.
Curtis Cummings (42:01)
What's being expected, right, in the communication. and so ⁓ give us patience to maybe make decisions or think about things to add to the conversation. I think this is why nines make good leaders, because when I'm in a room of coworkers and we're talking about a particular issue, I'm the last to talk. And that's because I'm gathering evidence. I'm gathering all people's opinions, I'm gathering
all the like analytics behind it, ⁓ and then finally recommending a decision. And usually it's baked in everything. And so it's the right, it's like the right call to make. ⁓ But we're not gonna instinctually or like instantly know that. So you've got to give us time to kind of digest that. ⁓ The other thing that I really like in the workplace are swim lanes. And I think that comes with
expectations and roles and responsibilities. I I like it when people recognize, this is in my swim lane, so I'm going to handle it. I'm gonna do it. ⁓ and I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's an if it's because they trust nine's communication style at work, but I constantly get asked to do things that aren't in my swim lane. And
Maybe it's because in the past I've always said yes to those because nines are very agreeable. But ⁓ but saying no has been liberating. It's like, no, that's not my swim lane. This is this is, you know, this person's swim lane or this person or or whatever. So yeah, it's kind of like I I have a need to know. I need you to recognize that I have a need to know, and I need you to know that I'm on a need-to-know basis, right?
Like I don't need to know everything. I don't write. ⁓ And so it it's kind of like, yeah, it's it's kind of like understanding that nine's gonna add a lot of value, but you also have to recognize that, you know, from a communication perspective, give them time, give them patience, ⁓ you know, make sure that they know like what they're responsible for and what they can bring to the table.
Sara (44:00)
Love it.
Kelsey Taylor (44:23)
Yeah. That's so good. Sarah, anything you would add to that?
Sara (44:26)
Love that. I love that.
Is this how others should co should approach nines or communicate with nines? Is that what we're okay. I love what you shared. I love the swim lane analogy. I will take that. And then the need to know that you're on a need that I'm on a need to know, and you're on the that whole sentence you just said, which I can't wait to rewatch about the need to know basis thing. That sounded like a Michael Scott ⁓ like like ⁓
Kelsey Taylor (44:36)
Mm-hmm.
Sara (44:59)
headshot or something. So that should be a meme actually that we can text each other. So I love it so much. ⁓ nines appreciate humor. Everyone should know that also. Like we really appreciate humor. ⁓ communicating with me. I want to be a person that you can just level and just say it and it's fine. And I recognize I am not that person. So I like honesty and directness
with hey I think you're doing a really great job right now. You crushed blah blah blah or I learned so much there. And next time can you like whatever the feedback is or if it's in a personal relationship too, I do need reassurance of like, hey, I w like we communicate we had this talk and something kind of hit me sideways and I care about our relationship so much. So I'd really like to talk to you about it. That's kind of how I communicate.
And I think I need that softness with people, but I don't like worrying that people are mad or where if I've failed expectations, if it's work. So I just want you to be very exact with like what's going on. I don't wanna have to leave the conversation and still worry that we didn't get it all out. So I like even asking, like, is there anything else that we need to discuss today or
you know, if there is anything we need to discuss, just know you can circle back with me and we can talk about it. Cause I I think again, that's my way of like preemptively avoiding more conflict. ⁓ so you just see that like constant radar for like how can I avoid conflict in the future? And that's basically my only future orientation is like, let's just avoid anything bad. meaning I'm not future oriented ⁓ at all. So
Yeah. So I think I l I love what Curtis said too, but I think that's what I would add.
Kelsey Taylor (47:02)
Yeah, that's great. Curtis, when it comes to communicating in general, what do you feel like you do well?
Curtis Cummings (47:12)
⁓ definitely see all sides. For sure. I mean, I think that's a gift that nines don't give themselves a lot of credit for. I think sometimes we are I I think others would rather us choose a side, you know, ⁓ a lot of times, because other others just want to be heard and seen, right? And that's totally fine. ⁓ but a nine's gift is being able to ⁓ have that analytical brain.
Where we can take in both sides and make a decision about something. ⁓ and it truly is all sides. It's seeing all of the things that happened before to make something else happen, or seeing how the dominoes ⁓ fell because of one decision or or things like that. So yeah, I think that's what I truly do best is bring in the the all sides. ⁓ how I communicate that is
is more so is more so confusion because I'll often take a long time. And that comes back to what we said earlier, right? About like giving us ⁓ latitude and and just ⁓ patience with us, you know, kind of coming back. But sometimes that seeing all sides requires a lot of thought. ⁓ and we go internal. So it looks like we're turning off. And
Kelsey Taylor (48:26)
Mm-hmm.
Curtis Cummings (48:40)
so it it can be a it could be a blessing and a curse is is kind of what I'd like to say about that.
Kelsey Taylor (48:47)
Curtis, what you said about the gift being able to see multiple perspectives is so true for nines and it's truly a gift. My best friend is a nine, and she does this with me all the time. And it took me a really long time for for me to actually lean in and appreciate it, which I'm embarrassed to
admit because she would be like, Well, have you considered this perspective? I'm like, no, shut the hell up. Take my side. So it took me a really long time to really say, no, I haven't considered that perspective. Thank you for bringing it up. And so it truly is a gift. I'm so glad you said that. ⁓ Sarah, what else would you add about what you do well when it comes to communicating?
Sara (49:33)
I well, I love what Curtis said. I feel like we listen well. I think I ⁓ listening goes hand in hand with ⁓ I think a value of mine is to hold space for people. So I think the older I'm getting, even though I'm pinging with well I wonder what this other perspective is or this other thing or have they
All that's pinging in my brain, and I feel like I'm trying to just hold space for the perspective in front of me, at least initially. and then wait for the right moment. Like I guess that's what Curtis said too. He speaks last after taking in all the different perspectives. I don't obviously do that perfectly, ⁓ or all the time. Sometimes I do chime in or interrupt, or ⁓ yeah, so I think listening, holding space and
I feel like I see people well, like I like
whoa, there's this larger picture that is affecting this
person in their type and like have you brought that in and just sort of that other perspective that helps honor the person in front of me at least in my work because I'm working with people on deep things like Enneagram stuff is not is not shallow work right so I feel like that is helpful that other perspective thing I do think it can go negative where it can dismiss someone's perspective also so I think it's like if
person A is coming you and you immediately hop into, well, did you think about that's really, really dismissive and unhelpful. So I think that's a a growth point of a nine. and for me to just listen, let the person get it out. And ⁓ but sometimes there is that inclination if I'm impatient. I I think nines can be less patient than people think we are. I can be terribly impatient actually. And
So yeah, I think it just all that goes into like how grounded am I in the conversation. ⁓ but when I am, I really I think I am a good listener and I think nines are really good listeners and people that can hold space for for others.
Kelsey Taylor (51:46)
Absolutely.
Curtis Cummings (51:46)
Yeah,
I I would agree 100%, Sarah. And I the question I would ask you, which which comes up for me, is sometimes it is hard to hold empathy because you see all sides. And you in I think you hit the nail on the head where you've got to con a nine has to really consciously come from a place of true groundedness and stability to be able to provide that empathy. and
What's interesting, if you connect it back to like the shape shifting that I mentioned earlier, if you a really solid ⁓ evidence that you're not that you're not in your true self is when you're coming at that from a shape shift shape shifting perspective and just being what they want you to be, rather than coming from it from a very like grounded true self perspective of a nine, truly offering empathy. and
Sometimes that's hard. I have to be very resourced, enough sleep, nutrition, exercise, whatever, to be able to provide that for another person. But I find that hard sometimes to switch from the multi-perspective, ⁓ seeing all sides to being empath empathetic for a an individual in a moment. Do you find that hard?
Sara (53:11)
Yeah.
yes. And feeling judgmental, that the feeling of being judgmental or whatever that would be is a very uncomfortable feeling for me. And when I and I do experience it and I feel very conflicted inside, and I immediately want more information so I can get to that empathy. Like it's really hard for me to have a judgment.
⁓ if I feel judgmental. It's like it's not a it's not hard for me to like, yes, this is what I believe or whatever, but ⁓ does that make sense to you? Like I get judgmental when I'm not empathetic, it feels like judgmental and I hate that I don't like that feeling and I feel like ⁓ well, I don't want to use a swear word, but yeah. And then also that shape shifting sounds like when you're
Curtis Cummings (53:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Sara (54:07)
when you might BS someone and I don't do that well at all. ⁓ but I I could do that in that shape shifting moment of very low behavior just to make them feel better, like say something that's kind of like, ⁓ well, you're just doing great or whatever, you know, if that's not authentically what I think. ⁓ that's so squirmy for me to but it's it's true. It's true. Yeah. And ⁓
Curtis Cummings (54:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
Sara (54:35)
I think you said something too about ⁓ like nines being seen as like was it kind or what was what was the word one of you used or ⁓ like how people just see us that way?
Curtis Cummings (54:51)
Yeah, and and we've been referenced as having kind face before, which for those ⁓ tuning into your podcast, Kelsey, and don't know what kind face is, from a nine perspective, it's ⁓ that even making judgments about others, we put on a kind face and they feel better walking away from our conversation, even though we may have criticized them or something.
Sara (54:56)
Kind face, yes.
Curtis Cummings (55:19)
⁓ it's a very unique nine gift ⁓ that I say with ⁓ a little bit of a little bit of shame around.
Sara (55:27)
Yeah, I
know. It's a little mortifying. Like it's not my favorite thing. And yet I just acknowledge it's true. And but I don't there the amount of people that call me sweet Sarah my entire life, it's starting to get to me a little bit because I worry that I have been inauthentic or something and they don't see how feisty I can be. And I I can be very, very feisty. I can be very ⁓
not sweet at all, you know. So I think there's like that duality of a nine that it maybe that's why kind face gets to me because I it's like, wait, like don't put that on me. I'm not kind all the time. Although I want to be a kind human and a human that brings love to the world, right? But there like that came to mind when when you were talking about that. It's like ⁓ yeah, I want to be authentic. ⁓ and I want to be an authentic communicator.
The other thing that I think needs to be said within this context too is like I can actually struggle often with black and white thinking or dualistic thinking. And I have even though we see all sides, ⁓ they say eights, nines, and ones can struggle with dualistic thinking in that triad. ⁓ and that's absolutely true for me, even though I do see all sides. So I think going back to even
When I feel judgmental, it's it's when I'm in that space and I I need to get not just other perspectives, but a non-dualistic outcome. That can show up ⁓ at work, you guys, where if if I get a review that's not good or a failure in some way, ⁓ that is that is really hard for me to just
flat out fail. Like I get evaluated and there's like a number with it and a color even stuff. And I can get very attached to that. And I have been like then I need then I step back and I'm like, wait, okay. I did that. I did that. I checked like one of my jobs, it's very in corporate the one I have in corporate America, it's like very standardized. So there's hard, fast rules for how we have to communicate with clients and stuff. So I can get very like
I did whenever they get sort of ⁓ like if it's outside of that objective, like I did the objectively right thing, but if they add in I didn't in some way, like I can get really ⁓ squirmy with my dualistic black and white ⁓ way of reacting to that. And it makes me probably really angry at first, but then I have to just go into self-compassion and everyone makes mistakes at work.
And that's my grade. I got a failing grade or a low grade or whatever. ⁓ so I wanted to just throw that in there with ⁓ we absolutely see all perspectives, but we can I can get stuck in duality and I it feels much better to be ⁓ not stuck there but in more that gray area that's much more comfortable for me. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (58:20)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah, you just taught me something. I had never heard nines being dualistic thinkers, that eights, nines, and ones. I've heard eights and ones, and I definitely am a dualistic thinker, but I had never heard that for nines. Curtis, would you consider yourself dualistic thinker as well?
Sara (58:47)
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah.
Curtis Cummings (59:02)
I think that ⁓ I am dualistic when it comes to right action. ⁓ and there will be times based off of the communication and the rules or expectation which you brought up, Sarah, where you instantly know this is a right or a wrong. ⁓ and that's where it can show up.
really powerfully ⁓ making decisions very fast when you don't necessarily need to think about it. When we ruminate or think about things and we're and we're pondering and you don't really see something coming from us, that's where the gray area is because we're thinking through all possibilities or we're thinking through like seeing all sides. But for me, dualistic definitely shows up if if there has been
⁓ a framework already established and communicated that I can instantly compare to and then it becomes dualistic because it's either a right or a wrong. So it's harder to go and I I think I think this is probably where you're going, Sarah, was it there's it it's harder to go from dualistic to gray.
Then it is from no, it's harder to go from gray to dualistic than it is from dualistic to gray. Right. And and so when we're it it it just kinda again, it depends. That's our answer for like everything. ⁓ but but yeah, that's kind of how I see it. And I I it's interesting. In context with with certain things at work, I can definitely see myself going dualistic for sure. Yeah.
Sara (1:00:29)
Sure. Okay.
Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (1:00:35)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay.
What about the judgmental element? ⁓ Sarah was sharing that, which I find fascinating because nines are almost always described as being non-judgmental. So do you resonate with that too?
Sara (1:00:50)
Thank you.
Curtis Cummings (1:01:04)
Yeah, so I have a perspective on this that ⁓ I've been thinking about. And ⁓ my wife is a counselor, she ⁓ has been you know doing this and and working with me on it. I think judgmental is a inherent ⁓ an inherent thing for nines that we that we deny. And I think that
Nines can be, I'm not saying we are, I think we can be the most judgmental. because because ⁓ I I think one of the reasons is because we're able to see all sides, ⁓ we we can be quick to cast judgments on others when when we we kind of we kind of know that they should see that.
Sara (1:01:40)
Mm.
Curtis Cummings (1:02:04)
This should be an all sides thing. ⁓ the other thing is that this shows up for me in road rage. So I love being in my car. I love to yell at people on the road. And I will deny that I do that. Right. But that is judgments that are that are cast. ⁓ I will find myself like casting a judgment on you know, friends or coworkers or or things like that for things that they do.
Sara (1:02:17)
No.
Okay.
Curtis Cummings (1:02:34)
For me, it comes up right away. I think what nines do is actually deny that to keep the peace and to make the world harmonious. And Sarah, what you said earlier about the the j j the judgmental doesn't feel right to you. ⁓ but it's still there. It still comes up, right? What we're doing is actually denying that and bypassing to keep the peace and keep harmony.
Kelsey Taylor (1:02:41)
Mm.
Sara (1:02:53)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.
Curtis Cummings (1:03:02)
⁓ so that's something that I'm really interested in examining further of how I operate. and I would love to play with some space ⁓ some safe spaces ⁓ to actually be judgmental and see what that feels like and actually work with that shadow, right? To to examine w how that is gonna show up for me and how I wanna play with it or be with it. which is which is different than what a
Sara (1:03:28)
With that.
Curtis Cummings (1:03:31)
Typical nine would you know, would do. It's it's all about, you know, denying that. So I don't know. Does that make sense, Sarah? For you?
Sara (1:03:37)
Yeah.
it so does. I mean mine I think mine fleshes out differently, you know, with perhaps gender or th our stories, etc. But everything you said felt authentic and true. I think our judgmental part is something to be explored and has a lot to do with our repressed anger and our repressed ⁓ sharing of
Curtis Cummings (1:04:01)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Sara (1:04:04)
how we think about things. And so often my judgment comes because I'm just listening to their perspective and taking it in. And I don't feel like I can share my perspective. And so I think that it comes, it elevates when I'm not sharing how I feel. ⁓ and I think my the other thing I want to say about dualistic thinking with nines is we
want to blame something or someone. And that justice minded thing that happens with, you know, I think every type want like can be focused on justice of of course, but they do s like that eight nine one with that triad, it's like that like I can that's where my dualistic can kind of get me in trouble is like either I'm to blame or you're to blame. And like then I have to just step back and go non dualistic where it's like, actually we're both right about
these things and I've I actually went to like a conflict workshop where there was like different steps that help helped me so much with things like this where it's like actually I agree with what they said about that but here's what I think about this and you know so there's this give and take that I have not come naturally to me as a nine, like especially as a younger nine. with that judgment, duality and blame. It's just
Kelsey Taylor (1:05:31)
Mm-hmm.
Sara (1:05:32)
It's a trifecta of delight. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (1:05:36)
Yeah, for sure.
Curtis, I would love to stay tuned and continue following your story as far as finding safe spaces to be judgmental and flesh that out. I want to know what that looks like. I don't I don't wait for safe spaces. I just am judgmental in all spaces. So I'm curious to see how that how that plays out. I love it.
Sara (1:05:42)
Yeah.
Curtis Cummings (1:05:56)
Ha ha.
Sara (1:05:57)
⁓
Kelsey Taylor (1:06:00)
Okay, last question for you guys. One of my favorite questions to ask is ⁓ what do you like most or best about being a type nine, Curtis?
Curtis Cummings (1:06:10)
⁓ I like the people aspects of ⁓ you know the r the relational aspect. I love working with people and ⁓ I think type nines can do that really, really well because we see all sides. ⁓ so I just ⁓ yeah, I'm a people person and and you know, kind of ⁓ love working with them.
Kelsey Taylor (1:06:36)
That's awesome. Thank you, Curtis. Sarah, what about you? What do you like best or most about being a nine?
Sara (1:06:42)
Yeah, I think connecting with people, it does it feels easy to go deep. I don't love small talk. and I kind of ask deep questions pretty quick. ⁓ I get to know people quick. ⁓ and I just feel like it connecting with people feels like a high, high value for me, in my life or nineness or both, ⁓ also. So I think the different
qualities of a nine make relationships pretty easy. I'm not saying my all my relationships are easy, but connecting and maintaining relationships. ⁓ I've I love my relationships. It's it's really what makes everything worthwhile, I think, in life. So yeah, so I'd say that too similar. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor (1:07:32)
Beautiful.
Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much. I appreciate you sharing. I appreciate your insights. I loved the conversation. ⁓ it w beautifully, beautifully said from both of you guys. Beautiful insights into communication styles and the heart of the nine. So thank you so much for joining me and thank you for being on the show today.
Sara (1:07:42)
Me too.
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Kelsey.
Curtis Cummings (1:07:54)
Thank you for having me.