Kelsey (00:00)
Welcome to the Working Enneagram YouTube channel where we talk about the enneagram in the context of work. I am your host, Kelsey Taylor, and today we are talking about the communication style of the Enneagram Type 8. Now, if you are watching for the first time, our goal in this conversation is that you would walk away saying, learned something about myself that I didn't know before, or I learned something about another Enneagram type, preferably the Type 8 that I did not know before.
And if you can say yes to one or both of those things, then our time together has been really well-spent. So before we jump in, I'd love to introduce Tara and Andrew, who are two of my very favorite Enneagram aides. Thank you guys. Welcome to the show.
Tara Mills (00:44)
Thank you.
Andrew Kohr (00:45)
Thank you
very much. Great to see you.
Kelsey (00:47)
Yeah, it's going to be really good time. And before we jump in again, specifics to the communication style of the eight, I'd love to give an overview of what I think the eight is. Y'all can correct me if I'm wrong. So I would say eight, they're known as the challenger. They're confident, direct, very protective leaders. They value strengths, honesty, independence, often want to feel in control of their environment.
and they tend to step up really quickly if something needs to be handled or something needs to be done. I think under stress they can be a little intense, maybe a little impatient. I've used the word controlling. I would love to hear your insights on that in just a second. And then I think at their best, they're courageous, extremely generous, and they do such a good job of empowering other people. So Tara, what would you add? What would you change?
Tara Mills (01:41)
I love all of that. ⁓ I think I would add transparent and honest.
Kelsey (01:49)
I love transparent. Tell me more about why you picked that word.
Tara Mills (01:53)
So it's interesting, like I tell clients all the time, like what you see is what you get. How you see me in here is gonna be the same as you see me if I'm at the grocery store or if I'm at home. Like it's just transparent and honest.
Kelsey (02:09)
Yeah, that's beautiful. Very well said. Thank you for that. Andrew, what would you add, change, anything?
Tara Mills (02:12)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (02:15)
Yeah, the controlling thing is interesting because I think I don't perceive it as that. It's a perception of control. I can't manage it. If I can manage it, can navigate whatever situation I'm in. So sometimes it's control, but it's also like the perception that I can actually, I can figure this thing out on my own and navigate. very independent. I often find myself.
Tara Mills (02:17)
Yeah.
Kelsey (02:22)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (02:43)
way ahead of everybody else. Because let's just do, let's go. I can figure this out on my own. So there's a need for me to slow down sometimes by community and around me, right?
Kelsey (02:56)
Yeah, for sure.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've heard it said that eight sometimes they're driving the bus and either you can get on it or not, but we're going. And if you're not on it, then sorry, you kind of been left in the dust a little bit. Would you say that's true?
Andrew Kohr (03:13)
100 % and if everyone else is an eight, it works great. Cause we're going, but some people need help getting on the bus. Right. And that's their own time. No decision to on the bus. we need to help them. So, um, yeah, I would say the transparency thing is interesting. wrote down clear as kind, and I think that's an eight thing. Like we, while we may not do it well sometimes,
That's our intent and our heart is there to be clear.
Tara Mills (03:43)
Yes.
Kelsey (03:45)
Beautiful. That works perfectly too with the communication style of the AIDS. So we'll delve into that a little bit more here in a bit. But one thing I'd love to differentiate as far as control, and I'm curious again, just to narrow down the difference between controlling other people and controlling your environment, because I think they want to control the environment. They don't feel like they need to control people. Would you say Tara that that fits?
Tara Mills (04:13)
You know, Kelsey, think this is the way I view it. And this may not be answering your question. I don't want to feel controlled.
And so I can see how that would look controlling. Does that make sense? Like I don't want to be controlled by people. I don't want to be controlled by money. I don't want to be controlled by any of that. So I can see how it would look like I'm controlling the environment because I don't want to be controlled. That's vulnerable.
Kelsey (04:45)
Okay, okay.
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. That's helpful. Andrew, anything you'd add?
Andrew Kohr (04:55)
Yeah, the vulnerability part, right? So it's less about controlling other people. It's really trying to control your heart and your space and protect it. And if I have to give that up, I'm invited to give that up.
that
feels dysregulating for my body. Like, ooh, how do I, what's gonna happen here? And if you're gonna save space as a therapist or a good friend or a spouse, that can work well, right? Or a community of people who you trust. But I suspect if you talk to a lot of eights, they will find places where that's happened in the past and they've gotten hurt by that. So they're going to put up...
Kelsey (05:14)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (05:38)
walls and barriers. So it's going to look like controlling people. We generally aren't thinking about the other person a lot of times. It's just very much about protection.
Tara Mills (05:41)
Yes.
Kelsey (05:48)
Mm-hmm. Okay, I hear protection and for me as a one, I'm thinking I'm going to protect myself from judgment. That's probably not true for you guys. What are you protecting yourselves from?
Andrew Kohr (06:02)
betrayal.
Kelsey (06:03)
Mm.
Tara Mills (06:03)
What did you say, Andrew? Betrayal and vulnerability.
Andrew Kohr (06:04)
betrayal.
Kelsey (06:08)
Yeah, vulnerability. Yeah. Okay. Thank you guys. I love that beautiful insight into the eight. Okay. Also before we jump into some of the specifics about communication, Tara, would you tell us a little bit about what you do for work?
Tara Mills (06:23)
Yes, I am a mental health therapist in the LPC and been doing that for about 23 years. I started out at Children's Advocacy Center seeing abused children and then I moved into private practice and I see just, I mean, ⁓ I see more adults now ⁓ and families and I love it. I love it.
Kelsey (06:51)
What do you love about it?
Tara Mills (06:53)
It's just, I think it's so, it's just such an honor that all of these people, all of my clients let me in and I get to walk like life with them. it's, I just, feel like it is such an honor and privilege to be able to do that with people that especially are hurting.
Kelsey (07:19)
Yeah, yeah. So one thing that I love about you, Tara, is last year I was in a very tough moment and ⁓ we were in a cohort together and at the end of the cohort, I missed the afternoon session, I spent it all just crying, working through some internal things. You waited for me at the end of that and you gave me time and you gave me space and what I love about you is that you were able to hold that.
And I think most people miss this about the Enneagram 8, their ability to have empathy and to hold space for other people. It's a beautiful thing. And so I'm forever grateful for that and glad that you brought that up.
Tara Mills (07:59)
Absolutely. was like that was an honor. That was an honor to do that. Absolutely.
Kelsey (08:04)
So sweet. Okay, Andrew, tell me about what you do for work.
Andrew Kohr (08:09)
Sure, so I have two jobs. I got Enneagram aid, I can't keep it to one. I've got to do multiple things at the same time. So for 20 years, I've been a landscape architect, an urban designer, a consultant in the consultant world. And my current role, I really help lead strategy and business development for a company looking in the Southeast region of the United States. I'm here in Atlanta. About...
In the past couple of years, I've also stepped into a separate business where I'm a story coach, a narrative focused trauma care specialist. I tell people I'm certainly not an LPC like Tara.
I do work in this one modality. I'm affiliated with the Allender Center and the Seattle School of Theology, so I facilitate work with them. I have one-on-one clients who come to me to help better understand their stories of trauma and how it shows up in today's life that they're living and helping get unstuck and have clarity around their story so they can move forward in what they were called to do.
Kelsey (09:20)
That's awesome. What are you enjoying most about your work right now?
Andrew Kohr (09:27)
Well, I think for the of the corporate job, I would say I love the strategy of it and thinking through and working with different people. I'm not a good manager of people, but I'm a good mentor. So I can kind of move between the spaces and talk to people and engage them. I think historically you don't want Andrew looking at your time sheets and approving.
expense reports, it's going to be a large fail. Like I just, because I don't find that to be ⁓ the top priority. I care more about the people and getting the tasks done. So I love that. love strategy. love building client relationships. And so a of those are one-on-one. I have long-term client relationships. I love doing that. I love seeing projects executed and built and moved forward.
working with communities, so that gives me lot of satisfaction. flipping it to what Tara said, being able to walk alongside people is really truly an honor. I always tell my clients, a lot of people have felt abandoned or not seen well. And so what I've offered them is, I'm gonna go where you allow me to go, where you want to take me, but I'm not gonna turn away.
I'm going to stay with you as long as you'd like me to stay with you. we do so I can hold, you know, of hold tough spaces with people and for it's also not mine to take their stories with me. So we make it very good. Like I'm going to help you hold that space together, but give you the resiliency so you can hold your story better.
Kelsey (11:08)
Yeah, that's well said. That's good. Both of y'all are holding space for people, which again, I think a lot of people misunderstand about the eight, their ability to have that compassion and empathy. So my question for you, Andrew, is does that tend to drain you? I'm interested to know if that's ⁓ true for you. Does it drain you? Does it energize you, these one-on-one storytelling sessions or therapy sessions?
Andrew Kohr (11:36)
Sure, so I come alive working in that space. That's why I know it's one of my callings to work with people in that realm and understanding their story. And I love it I come alive. And then when I'm done, I'm done. I need a space to reenergize. Because it's a lot to give. And while I love doing it, I can only do it for a short amount of time.
And then I need to kind of take a step back. And I often, I'm still learning that, like where are my boundaries to say, I need to get, how do I get recharged? What's self care look like? Because for so long in my life, I'm like, I can, I'm an eight. I can just like, let's, know, I only need like a, battery to be charged in for 30 minutes. Let's go again. And that's really not true.
Kelsey (12:20)
Yeah, I appreciate that. Tara, what would you add?
Tara Mills (12:24)
Well said, Andrew. ⁓ I do come alive in session. I, ⁓ I mean, I'm animated. I'm all in. I'm all in. ⁓ I think that I am still, after all these years, figuring out like how many clients to see a week because I want to see as many as possible. And ⁓ I, after I finish,
It's like what Andrew said, I am done and tapped out. And oftentimes I don't know, and this is being out of touch with feeling, right? Like I don't know how whipped I am until I get home. And then it's like...
You know, I try to do something before I leave that like kind of this ritual of I'm leaving this here, you know, like, and it's washing my hands, which is kind of funny, but it's like, I'm just, trying to leave this here so I can go recharge and relax. But yeah, it's the same, just.
So in and then then afterwards it's almost I mean at the end of the week. Sometimes I'll hit a wall
Kelsey (13:45)
Yeah, yeah. When you say wash your hands, you mean you're literally washing your hands.
Tara Mills (13:50)
I
I wash my hands when I leave my office because I'm trying to keep it here and not take it with me.
Kelsey (13:52)
Amazing.
Yes, that's a beautiful metaphor too.
Andrew Kohr (14:04)
I love like the ritual component. think eights would do well to learn rituals to reconnect with their body. Like that's a reconnection with their body, which is where I like remaining present. And that's how I love that. And like, I have a candle here, like just things to set the space. Yeah.
Tara Mills (14:06)
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Totally agree.
Kelsey (14:24)
That's good. Tara, how do you know you're in any Gram 8?
Tara Mills (14:28)
gosh. goodness. I've got so many stories about this. are not, we don't even have time. ⁓ So I'm trying to figure out what, so I studied it. I've studied it for over a decade, right? And I use it with clients every day. I've been to tons of conferences. ⁓ Suzanne Stabill's conferences. She used to come to Jackson. ⁓ And I'm going to, I am going to tell a funny story. So this is,
My first conference with Suzanne Stabille. So I just started kind of learning it like 10 or 11 years ago, whatever. I realized that I was an eight. So I march up to her during the break and I say, I don't think I'm an eight. I don't think I'm an eight because I'm a therapist and I work with feeling all the time. And she kind of...
She kind of looked at me and kind of scoffed and said, yeah, yeah, H are great with other people's feelings. They're not good at their own. And I'm telling you, it was like the, it was the biggest realization because I really thought that I was great with my feelings. And it turns out I wasn't. And then she looked at me and she said, wait until you meet my daughter,
And so, you know, if you're friends with Joey Shewey, you're gonna know your type, you know? And it's just, you know, so that's how, you know, talking, studying, and I realized pretty soon looking into it that I was an ape.
Kelsey (16:13)
Okay, tell me a little bit more about, I thought that I was in touch with my feelings, but then I realized that I'm not. What does that mean?
Tara Mills (16:23)
I I think, I think AIDS can be so out of touch with their feeling, you know, that they think they're in touch with. I know that may, that's kind of contradicting, but it's like, you know, anger's right there all the time. Like it's easy, easy is easy. And I'll tell you this, my own therapist, this is one of the best interventions. There's these core feeling magnets that she gave me, right? And they're,
There are two places in my office like shame, hurt, glad, guilty, angry, fear, sad, guilty, right? She said to me, I want you to take the anger and put it to the side. And every day I want you to ask yourself, what did you feel other than anger? And that was powerful.
Kelsey (17:14)
⁓ Did you find that there is a consistent emotion?
Tara Mills (17:19)
There were several consistent emotions. mean, even there was even a guilty emotion. I was like, what? I feel guilty, but you know, like it was, and I do tend to still do this. It's a great exercise to do.
Kelsey (17:34)
Yeah,
that's wonderful. I love hearing that. That's so good. That's such good insight, not just for eights, but I think for ones as well, because we're in touch with our anger typically. But for me, I've noticed sadness is consistently right underneath that anger a lot of times. So it's a great exercise. Highly recommend that coming from Tara. Anybody watching, please do that. It's great. Andrew, what about you? How do you know you're an eight?
Tara Mills (17:51)
Yeah.
Andrew Kohr (18:02)
I read a book years ago, the Enneagram for Dummies book, I kind of went through them like eight, and then I just walked away. like, I know that's my number. And I listened to a podcast and I only listened to the podcast about the eight. This is a true eight thing. Cause I'm like, what do I care about the three or seven? I'm an eight. That's not going to help me. Um, and then one, one podcast, a woman said, Oh, I'm an eight. was an eight. was a Episcopalian preacher. And she's like, Oh, I love babies.
And I love dogs because they calm me. I'm like, oh yeah. Like get a dog next to me and it calms me and regulates me. I'm like, that sounds like me. So here's how know I'm an eight because five minutes before this started, I was in there folding laundry with my wife. And I said, so, know, I've got to do this podcast, this video with Kelsey. So why do you think, how do I know I'm an eight? Like I asked her, like, let's make some notes real quick. I mean, this is like five minutes before. I'm like, cool. Right. I'm like, I'm just taking notes. I'm like, oh yeah.
So, I mean, I just, I wrote a couple of things that I think will land. The anger is always there. And I think the one thing I'll add to Terris thing, which I like about the emotion, right, is that when I tell people, it's like, my anger is like my proxy for my other emotions sometimes. Like an agent, like a sports agent, it's gonna show up representing me or representing something else. And so I'm like, I'm not just angry.
But there's other stuff going on. And to Tara's point, once you slide that off the magnet, off the refrigerator, there's other items there that really start showing up. ⁓ Hate and justice.
a very fast processor. I mean, there's about 10 or 12 things going on many times in my head. And so
⁓ Yeah, I can just kind of see myself. It's just how I operate. It's my MO. My wife said there's an intensity about you. So every time people have met me, done groups, like, wow, I just want to name like your fierceness or your intensity. said, I'm not intense. Like, I'm like, I'm just here. Like, what are you talking about? And at first I was really offended because I don't want to be perceived as a gruff or... ⁓
Kelsey (19:54)
Yeah, that's great.
intimidating.
Andrew Kohr (20:19)
or violent even, like that intensity where I'm like taking something away from you. And I'm like, no, that's not me. And then I began to sit with that more and understand really what that's about.
Kelsey (20:33)
Yeah, I love that you talked about intensity. have eights, tell me often. I would never consider myself an intense person, but people tell me all the time that I'm intense. Here I see you nodding your head. Has that happened to you a lot? Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Mills (20:47)
Yes, yes,
absolutely. You know, I've said before I would love to do some kind of cartoon character of like shades of an A and like everybody, not everybody, but most people think it's anger, but it could be intensity or it could be passion or it could be, I mean, loudness, you know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's anger.
And that I think is what is very misunderstood. One of the things that's very misunderstood.
Kelsey (21:19)
Yes.
Yes, I think passion is probably one of the best words that I have heard used. Like I am a passionate person as an eight and the rest of us are like, wow, they're angry.
Tara Mills (21:33)
That's it.
That's it, Kelsey. That's it.
Andrew Kohr (21:37)
You know, I listened to a podcast, Kelsey, not too long ago with three people on there. One was an eight, a true eight. She was the quietest person on the podcast, but I knew instantly she was the eight. It's how she presented it, how she spoke and so, yeah. Yes. One was, I'm pretty sure a five and one, another one was a six.
Kelsey (21:37)
Okay.
Were they all supposed to be eights and the other two were not? Okay. Okay.
Yeah, okay. Okay, that's fair.
Andrew Kohr (22:08)
So we'll
just unnamed podcast. But again, I think eights can get mistyped, right? Other people can get mistyped as eights. It's a great example because someone was talkative. hear that women get that tagged a lot because you talked up a lot. You're on automatically an eight. I'm like, mm.
Kelsey (22:17)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (22:28)
No.
Kelsey (22:28)
Maybe
not, maybe not. Yeah, yeah, that's really well said from both of you guys. Thank you. Okay, let's transition communication style. So ⁓ communication style of the eight I have heard described as commanding sometimes blunt and direct. I think direct is probably the most accurate in those three. ⁓ Andrew, what would you add? What would you change?
Andrew Kohr (22:54)
Yeah, I think the directness is because we want to offer clarity. Again, I'll go back to clear as kind. And so if we're not in a good space, it can come off as almost bullying or forcing it on someone. I think bullet points like in my emails, if I have to scroll, it's too long of an email. You should have called me.
Kelsey (23:21)
That's valid. That's good.
Andrew Kohr (23:22)
Let's have a conversation, like, my role, like, let's just talk about something. Like, let's figure it out and talk through it versus eight emails that could have done in one phone call. So that's, when we talk about direct, it's also efficiency. think that's part of it, being efficient.
Kelsey (23:30)
Yes.
Yeah, as of one, I do appreciate the communication with Aids because there is an efficient level to that. And I'm like, this is exactly what I need, what I like and appreciate. So thank you guys on behalf of all Aids for that. That's great. Dara, what would you add? What would you change? Commanding, blunt, direct.
Tara Mills (24:00)
You know, it's funny, I was talking to my son, he's 13, about communication and I just was gonna ask, he knows a little bit about the Indian ground. And I asked him, how do you think I communicate? And he said, I said direct, said, mm-hmm. I said blunt, mm-hmm. And he said, and then I said commanding, he said no.
Kelsey (24:28)
Okay.
Tara Mills (24:29)
And that's the one I don't think I communicate commanding. I would say I communicate pretty intensely. Maybe not all the time, but most of the time. But yes, the direct and the blunt, for sure.
Kelsey (24:48)
Would y'all say I'm gonna, I'm gonna, think hang out on commanding for a second because I think commanding is, I'm gonna tell you what to do. There's another control element that may be misunderstood that's connected with eight. I'm gonna tell you what to do. These are the next steps, but I almost wonder if eights are more vision casters of like, here's where we could go. And if there's maybe something connected to the commanding of like here's
Tara Mills (24:54)
Mm-hmm.
Kelsey (25:18)
what I want you to do or as opposed to like here's where we could go as a team? Do y'all see any of that? Does that resonate? Andrew, anything?
Andrew Kohr (25:29)
Yeah, in a work example, some oftentimes I'll be in meeting and we'll have different Enneagram types in that room and there's no one making a movement forward. There's no one making decisions So often it's not when I come into room and say this is what we're doing It's also like I come in I'm listening what's going on. What do you need for me? I'm here or what do you need and then there's no movement going forward So like okay after about after 20 minutes of this or 15. I'll be like, okay
This is how we need to do to write this proposal, get this project done. Here's what I'm thinking. And I'll offer it back and say, tell me if I'm wrong, but like no one has offered this information. So I'm going to offer it out in the world. I do not care if you think it's wrong. That's fine. If you have a better idea, I'm all open. I'm often not the smartest person in the room. And so I love more data. Like let's do something else. Not more data, but like I love another direction, right? Where to go.
Let's do it. But if you're not offering anything, I think that's the commanding. Like, let's move. Let's move out.
Kelsey (26:32)
Maybe decisive might be a better word too.
What would you add anything?
Tara Mills (26:40)
No, I agree with what Andrew said. think even with clients, if we're focusing on the same thing, you know, a lot and I'm like, OK, got to move. Like, let's move. How can we move forward? know? So yeah.
Kelsey (26:55)
Yeah.
Okay. When it comes to communication, Tara, what do you feel like you do really well?
Tara Mills (27:07)
think that it's that transparency and honesty and what you see is what you get. That's just kind of, I think that's it, right there.
Kelsey (27:18)
think that builds a lot of trust. can imagine for me, the what you see is what you get. I don't have to worry that you're being too kind to me and there's actually a hidden message in that. I think it creates a lot of trust. Yeah.
Tara Mills (27:30)
Yes, yes,
I think it does too. And it's kind of nice to just, you know, just go, just be that way. Not hide anything. Nobody has to speculate or assume about what I'm thinking or what, or saying.
Kelsey (27:40)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Truly a gift, yes. Okay. Andrew, you mentioned clear as kind. That's one way that I think you feel like you communicate well, and I would agree with that. Anything else come to mind on how you communicate well?
Tara Mills (27:51)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (28:06)
think part of the communication style that I've learned, especially in especially this work around people's stories, is I begin asking lots of questions and inviting curiosity. I always say curiosity, but like inviting questions. So I've learned going from a...
⁓ Yes or no question mentality, which is sounds like a lawyer is we'll ask yes or no questions, right? To have defined answers to asking open-ended questions, just to elicit more information, to understand better, because that's going to get where we want to go faster. Sometimes I want to know where you're coming from to understand. So I've done that more, which is helpful. And then...
⁓ You know, in my work too, in my corporate job, people will often call me because I'm a fast processor. So they're like, look, we need a punchy tagline for this Instagram post. How would you, like, how do you frame story? Like, I'm talking like a story, like, here's a picture of a park. What's the story here? Okay, here are three, four words. Here's how we would frame it.
So not only that's an eight thing, but it's often a, I'm walking the dog literally and they'll call me, I'm like, I need something for this. Can you help me figure this out? So in a matter of five or six minutes, we can nail down something where they're stuck. so again, that's fast processor. Let's pull something together. What's that bullet point? I think too, especially with my clients.
Kelsey (29:32)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (29:36)
what I've done a lot, think Terry, you'll probably say the same thing, maybe, maybe, I don't know, but like, I try to actually like, let's name, like, let's put real words around this. Because we've been like, we've been naming, we're talking a lot about your story, or talking about trauma or a struggle. Let's make a sentence, right? Or let's put a comma to that sentence you just said, and let's finish it. So let's build it out and be very articulate and clear and particular. Which I think...
I don't know that's an eight thing, but that's an Andrew thing. And I think it's helpful to, again, articulate more what we're trying to get to.
Kelsey (30:14)
Tears on anything?
Tara Mills (30:15)
Yeah, well, I think so. Yes, absolutely. I am all about naming. Naming the part, name it, you know, like, because also it helps, it can help them dive into their story or maybe they need to be detached from a certain part of it, you know? And so absolutely, like, let's, let's name it.
Kelsey (30:40)
Yeah, I almost think about if you were to go to a grocery store and there were no labels, labels can be naming things can be so helpful because if you're just picking up a can, you're like, I don't know what this is. We're going to cook it for dinner and you don't like clams. You're out of luck.
Tara Mills (30:53)
That's a great amount. That's good. That's really good.
Kelsey (30:57)
I am curious for the both of you, because you hold space for other people and you do ask very thoughtful questions and you're pulling out these elements of other people that may feel very vulnerable to them. Do y'all have somebody that you trust that does that for you, Tara?
Tara Mills (31:15)
Absolutely. have my own therapist, ⁓ but I have some of the most wonderful long-term friends that would do anything for me. And I know that they would.
Kelsey (31:33)
I love that. That's so good. Andrew, what about you?
Andrew Kohr (31:37)
Yeah, absolutely. I have a tribe and I think there's like different, there's your peers. Like who are those people, those friends, right? I've got some guides in my life. So those, have a therapist who I've known forever. And I also see, my wife and I see a therapist because it gives a different perspective. ⁓ I have other people in this world that are good friends, but specifically in the trauma care world. And we're just always talking and like.
I'm stuck here, I'm feeling this or this happened to me like, and it's always like, well, how are you feeling about that? I'm like, I'll talk about that. I'm feeling fine. ⁓ No, but it's like, okay, who are inviting me to slow down? Like, hey, what's going on here? Then I have some sages, some people I kind of, would say, who I can rely on because they've oftentimes lived.
Tara Mills (32:19)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (32:31)
a longer number of years, they've had more trials, they've seen more ups and downs, and so they can hold space for that too. I always think of those tiers, I forget where those tiers came from, those levels, but that's kind of how I think of it. So it's kind of a complex group of, what I like to call tribe of people.
Kelsey (32:50)
I think that is really healthy for eights because I have been told before it is hard for eights to find and lean into that space because it is a little more vulnerable. It's easy to just kind of keep things to yourself and feel like I'm strong. I'm not burdening other people maybe and I'm not being vulnerable potentially. Yeah. Okay. Andrew, when it comes to communication, where do feel like you could improve if anywhere at all?
Andrew Kohr (33:18)
here's a great example. ⁓ I think eights are such fast processors that sometimes we start in the middle of a topic. And I'm like, this is where we are. This is why we're, this is the story and this is what I'm telling you. This is how we do the thing we do. And, you know, that's maybe right in the middle, right? That's letter ⁓ and.
Tara Mills (33:42)
Hmm.
Andrew Kohr (33:44)
It's what happened H through L. Like, how do we get here? What's the context? It's obvious to me. That's why I'm here. Why would I have to go back and explain all this? It's like, I don't understand. So here's a great example. I'm working on a presentation for a conference. I've finally said, I've offered my wife to review it because I'm like, this makes total sense to me. And then through that process, we've redone the presentation because it made zero sense to her.
or confusing, not zero cents, but it was confusing of why are we making those jumps? Well, it's obvious in my mind, we're here, why aren't, come join me. So there has to be an invitation. So that means I have to slow down, go back. Maybe Terry, have you heard this in like the theory, like build the scaffolding to kind of, to get somewhere. Otherwise just kind of hanging on the top of the roof, know, like hanging, I'm like, whoops, I forgot to build the scaffolding.
And so I need, you know, for other people, right, to come alongside. So if want, if AIDS want people to come alongside us, because I think we offer good gifting in those things as leaders, we have to build the scaffolding to get there. And that requires patience, which I need a lot of and slowing down.
Kelsey (35:01)
Mm-hmm, makes total sense. I also love that you have a nine for a wife that can help slow down and that has multiple perspectives to bring to the table. So great to bounce ideas off of. We love Jenny. Okay, Tara, where do you feel like you could improve when it comes to communication, if anywhere at all?
Andrew Kohr (35:12)
100%. Thank you.
Tara Mills (35:23)
I've got three Ps. Pause, patience, and prayer.
Kelsey (35:35)
I love that. that's good.
Tara Mills (35:38)
I have to think about that every day. And
it is unbelievable how fast eights will do and it's not even a thought. It's just like action. And then it's like the scaffolding thing. And then, so I have to tell myself,
pause and think before you do.
Kelsey (36:08)
I've heard it said for AIDS that there's a lot of fire aim ready instead of ready aim fire. Yeah, I think the three P's are so good. That's great. Thank you for sharing that, Terrence. Okay.
Tara Mills (36:20)
Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew Kohr (36:23)
I just wrote
that down.
Tara Mills (36:24)
Hahaha!
Kelsey (36:26)
It's so good. Okay, so something for me as a one when I communicate, I tend to, I can be very direct and my hope is that I'm communicating ways that I think we can improve or get better. And I want people to know that that comes from a really good plan. I care about you and that's why I'm sharing. What would you want other people to know about your communication style? Like how can we give you grace based on your communication style?
Andrew, any thoughts?
Andrew Kohr (36:58)
I think if we're engaging, whether it could be misinterpreted as commanding or things, if we're engaging, we're in it. We're for you.
If you see that eight shut down.
Tara, we talked about a couple of those stories sometimes on AIDS shut down. That's the danger sign. So when we're in it, and again, it is not personal.
we have a job to do, let's do it well.
So I'm gonna give you what I think is good and well to meet that expectation. And that's what I would think you'd want. So that's what I'm gonna offer. so, I know, Tara, does that land?
Tara Mills (37:43)
I love that. That is so accurate. If we are engaging, we're all in. I tell people all the time, you don't need to worry if I'm talking and being intense and even being loud. It's when I'm quiet.
when I am quiet, that's not good. That is me shutting down, for sure. The other thing I would say too is I think healthy aids, I have a big heart. I have really big heart, especially for dogs and children. Those truly, and I wrote this down like,
Kelsey (38:17)
Okay.
Tara Mills (38:37)
Dogs and children make me cry. I cry that fast if an animal is hurt or a child is hurt. And it's the justice thing, especially working with abused children. I mean, nothing can make my head spin faster and feel so deeply.
Kelsey (38:58)
I love knowing that. That's really good, Tara. Thank you.
Tara Mills (39:01)
Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew Kohr (39:02)
You know, I think too, Kelsey, and this is hard for different types, but I think if you're engaging with an eight or you have an interaction with them, even pushing back on an eight is a great invitation. An eight would not be offended by that. Like, let's go. Not because we're debating, and this is, think, different than a five. Five is debate over, I've gotten into debates I didn't want to be a part of. You have more knowledge than me. Okay, whatever. You read more books. Do not care.
Tara Mills (39:22)
Yes.
Andrew Kohr (39:31)
I didn't read that book. Okay, you win. I'll give you the day. See the ground. If we're debating about doing and what to do, I think that's the doing space where the debating is happening. Not in the, I'm gonna out-thank you. I'm like, okay, you can have that all day long. I'm gonna move on. But if it's about doing and like what to do in a particular situation about a project or a thing like.
Tara Mills (39:46)
Yeah.
Andrew Kohr (39:55)
That's okay. Like even in the therapy space, when I'm working with a client, Tara, I've told clients this, like, I've had people who like curse at me and yell at me. And I'm like, okay, that does not offend me. And you have a place and I can hold that. it's not that it's gonna bounce off, I dismiss it because I have a big heart. I know where that wounding is coming from.
Tara Mills (40:20)
Yeah. Yes.
Andrew Kohr (40:23)
And I think when people shut down, I think I feel this too sometimes. I'm like, oh, they're feeling the intensity and I watched them shut down. That doesn't bring shame per se, but it has a, there's a tenderness. like, oh, I don't want those people to shut down. I'm engaging you because I deeply care. Let's go. And so I'm like, oh man, I wish they knew that I'm in it to win it just like they are. I'm the last one out of the pool.
Tara Mills (40:52)
That's right. And to remember, eights are all about tasks and people. They're not thinking about themselves. I'm not thinking about myself. It's unbelievable. I mean, truly. And I think eights can, there can be some hard body things going on with them, but they're not focused on self, which is the work to do. There's work, I mean,
Andrew Kohr (41:01)
ever.
Kelsey (41:22)
For sure, yeah, yeah. I wanna hang out a little bit more about shutting down. Is that a move to the five space, do you think, or is just that you and your eightness? Tierra, what do you think?
Tara Mills (41:42)
think it's definitely 5Space.
I do. And I think it's also, it's like I've talked about hitting a wall. think it's what Andrew has talked about of putting the wall up to protect, you know, which could be, that could be eight, that's eight, you know? So I think it could be a combination, honestly.
Kelsey (42:03)
Yeah, Andrew.
Andrew Kohr (42:05)
Right, so to use Joey Shuey's language a little bit about the low side and high side of five. Yeah, I go to five all the time. If I'm quiet, thinking that's not necessarily a bad thing. But there is a shutdown component of that. Here's a separate switch that can get pulled in that space. I think it's a both and. I don't think it's just, you're just in your unhealthy five or you're just in eight. I think it's a both and. But I know when I'm in an unhealthy five and I've shut down after really something bad, like I go sleep for hours.
Tara Mills (42:10)
Mm-hmm.
You're right.
me too.
Andrew Kohr (42:36)
just like I'm out I'm dead to the world it's not a thinking space it is a numbed out space and or it's a some there's there's anger rising and so we've got to pull the switch cap it we're not doing it this isn't a safe space and I just pull back and just
Kelsey (42:56)
Okay, so you gave me a little
bit of a glimpse into what my next question is, which is what causes you to shut down? Do you have an example?
Tara Mills (43:05)
betrayal. Betrayal. mean the times I have been betrayed by people that I truly loved. It is a painful, painful shutdown and I mean I'm not talking to anybody. Anybody.
Kelsey (43:26)
⁓ Is the betrayal something like, can you give an example? Is it something like gossip? ⁓ Something deeper than that?
Tara Mills (43:34)
I
okay, here's here's an example.
I pour love, energy, time into people, okay? And years and years and years and years. And then I wanna do something different than be in that and then it explodes and mean girls come out and it's like gonna discount every
all the years, all the love, all the everything, because I'm trying to take myself out of it. Does that make sense? I'm trying not to get real specific with this. And so, and then when they all turned their backs on me,
Kelsey (44:20)
Sure, Yeah, I guess.
Tara Mills (44:32)
It's, it's, I still don't understand it.
Kelsey (44:37)
Mm-hmm, that's the shutdown. Yeah, okay. Andrew, what would you add? Any examples come to mind?
Andrew Kohr (44:44)
That hits close to homes and I have to be careful what I say. ⁓
I've had individual situations where someone unbeknownst to me, maybe hurt someone. And I said, please tell me I am here to offer rest. I will search my soul. I don't understand. And I've been told, well, if you don't know, then I can't tell you. I'm like, I don't know what to do with that. And then these are people who are close to me. then these are people who still live geographically close to us.
who we were good friends with, and they will walk by our house and refuse to acknowledge our presence. I've been in places where they're behind me versus a gentleman's behind me in his bike, won't even acknowledge my presence. I'm like, really, man? Like, we're gonna do that? We were close, like, and I'm willing to own my part, but I have to be able to understand what I own. I'm not gonna own something I don't understand. Like, I need to know.
Otherwise it's not true authentic apology. And again, I don't think it truly was that. And that's the other thing is like, I've been, and I've seen it to happen to other people. Just, there's other situations too. And ⁓ I think because eights don't do self well, like I'm here to help, I'm here to do, then there are some blinders on and there's a setup involved. Setup is because you're not aware of what's happening. You're not seeing it because you're just,
or you're so angry or whatever, then that's when the person or whatever, the group of people can come behind and you're like, what's happened? Because it's not about me. And I think that's misconstrued. I think it's hard for people to conceptualize. If you're self-focused, I'm like, I'm not self-focused. like, I...
Kelsey (46:22)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tara Mills (46:25)
Yeah.
Andrew Kohr (46:37)
And I think that's threatening to people. It's framed for an eight to some degree, but it's threatening. Like, why aren't you, you know, why isn't it all about you? I'm like, it is not. I hate to tell you about that. I don't know what to tell you. So that can be threatening to others.
Tara Mills (46:41)
Hmm.
Kelsey (46:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Thank y'all both for sharing and being vulnerable in that regard. think it is something Joey has said before happens tragically to AIDS all the time. That leads to my next question, which was not on my list of questions that I shared, ⁓ but it's about AIDS being misunderstood. So Tara, where do you feel like you are most misunderstood either as Tara or as an AIDS?
Tara Mills (47:29)
The anger, know, people thinking I'm angry and I'm not, you know, that's a big one. That's a big one in certain relationships. ⁓ And ask me, just if I hurt your feelings, I wanna know. Like I really wanna know. Cause it's not intentional, you know?
I do feel misunderstood in that way. ⁓ That's probably my main way I can think of right now. I'm sure that I could come up with other ways, but yeah.
Kelsey (48:11)
Lou of them. Yeah. Yeah, that's
good. Thank you, Tara. Andrew, what about you? Where do you feel most misunderstood, either as Andrew or as Nate?
Andrew Kohr (48:20)
Yeah, I think growing up and I still this leans into more less adulthood but growing up often I would hear like I just wish you were more compassionate and I'm like look my anger has nothing to do with my lack of compassion and so you miss you're taking it and I'm not angry I just believe this is really important or x y and z and they would take that to be like well you know Andrew's anger I'm like I'm not angry
I mean, I may have anger as a motivation or I may be, but generally like I'm passionate about something and you'll know when I'm angry. Like it's gonna, I'll let you know I'm angry. But there are times when it's like there's an assumption and I'm like, gosh, I'm not. And I do deeply care. And it's unfortunate that isn't communicated or seen.
Kelsey (49:10)
Yeah. Yes.
Yes. One thing I think is so interesting about eights and then maybe the rest of us eights will tell will tell me consistently. I've heard you say it, Andrew. Tara, I don't think you've said this. So maybe not all eights, but I've heard Joey say it too. You'll know when I'm angry. And I think there's an irony to that because we don't know when you're angry because it all feels like anger, the passion and it all. So
It's so interesting to me because the eight is very aware of when they are angry and the rest of us are like, you're angry all the time. We don't, we don't know. And so that's something I find to be very interesting.
just please. Yes.
Tara Mills (49:55)
Can I say something to that? OK,
OK, so that's interesting. My child obviously knows me very well. And he'll say, mom, you look mad. Mom, you look me. And I'll say, Zach, you know. And then he'll finish. You you will. You know when I'm angry, like when I'm truly angry.
And explaining to him, this is intensity. No, I feel very passionate about this. It's kind of neat to teach that. But even with the ones that you live with, sometimes it happens.
Kelsey (50:42)
Yeah, yeah, that makes me feel a little bit better. Like I'm not alone on interpreting things. I think the beauty to you teaching that to Zach and for the rest of us to be aware enough to love the eights well enough to discern the difference between them. think maybe that's an area where we can be you guys halfway to. Andrew, you were gonna say something, I'm sorry.
Tara Mills (50:48)
Absolutely.
Andrew Kohr (50:50)
You know.
Well,
I love the, Joey used this as an example of an eight. ⁓ It's Harry D'Souza and I think it's Gangland. Is it Gangland? What's the show? ⁓ It's the, it was the Paramount show and he's a mobster or mobland. It's mobland, mobland. So Harry D'Souza is a fixer and there's a scene where he's like, he goes to collect information from a bartender about an incident with the family and.
Kelsey (51:23)
monthly. Yeah.
Andrew Kohr (51:36)
He says to him, look, I'm at a one. You do not want to see me at a six level. And he's just, this character is always intense. And it's a perfect example of that. That's an eight. Intense. And then there will be times when he gets angry, but very rarely, but it's a different level, scalability. And so just love that. Like, yeah, we're not, you know.
Like when I go play golf, I'm going and I've got buddies and they want to have a beer and hang out. I love that. Like, do you do you? But I am in it to get a low score today, as low as I can get it. So if that's going to remove that and I want to hang out and have fun, but like I can't, I learned I just can't do that. ⁓ And so I'm like, I got to be on it, right? And so, but that's what I enjoy doing. It also makes me happy. So.
Kelsey (52:33)
You're bringing your whole self, absolutely, yes. Okay, on that note then, we're gonna end on this question. It's my favorite question to ask. Andrew, what do you like most or best about being a Type 8?
Andrew Kohr (52:47)
Can you make Tara go first? I gotta think about this.
Tara Mills (52:50)
go.
Okay, a couple things. I really like being a doer. I like seeing big picture. I like that. I like getting stuff done. You know, like I really like that. I like standing independent. I like choosing if I'm going internal or external. You know, I really like that. ⁓ I kind of, well, I really do like not feeling my emotions all the time.
I mean, and that's a blessing and a curse, right? I mean, every part of us is. So yeah, I think those are three things I like.
Kelsey (53:31)
Yeah, excellent things. You picked excellent things. I love that. Thank you, Tara.
Andrew Kohr (53:36)
Okay, Tara gave me confidence or helped me figure out, I already have confidence, Nate, but ⁓ help, I think, clarify in my head.
Only because being an aid's always been used against me sometimes. And so I have to always think a little bit longer, like, okay, what's the goodness that aid offers? And there's a lot. I love that I'm a fast processor. I love thinking strategically and moving that, like, let's move this to move this. I see things in like an ecosystem format, right? So you move this, there's a web. You move that, then we move this. You turn that knob, good to turn that knob. Like that movement is so much fun and I can see that.
Tara Mills (53:49)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (54:14)
So I can see things other people can't see, I discern well. So I think bring, I think eights bring that, I love the independent stance. I can choose or not choose to care about something and be involved. And if I need to shut it off, just, I walk away from it. And so there's, and I love that we have big hearts. I actually really, as bad as it is, and we need to focus on ourself, I'm kind of happy there's no self motivation in.
Tara Mills (54:18)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (54:42)
the eight or the five, it's all task oriented. And then there's the others and two. And so I really, I need to work on it. But I love that about me. I can focus on others and I have the heart to do it. And I can hold the tough stuff like that's.
Tara Mills (54:54)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Kohr (55:02)
That's an honor to be able to do that with people.
Kelsey (55:05)
Beautifully said, both of you guys. Awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Our time together really has been so good. I could not have picked two better eights. I really could not. I'm so grateful for you guys. Thank y'all for joining today. You're amazing.
Tara Mills (55:19)
You too, Kelsey. Thank
Andrew Kohr (55:20)
welcome. Thank you. This
is awesome. Thank you for doing this.
Tara Mills (55:22)
you.