Kelsey (00:00)
welcome to the Working Enneagram YouTube channel where we talk about the enneagram in the context of work. Our goal here is that you would grow an empathy and or self-awareness that you would be able to say, learned something about myself that I didn't know before, or I learned something about another enneagram type, probably the type five that I didn't know before. And if you can say yes to one of both of those things and our time together has been really
So.
Today's episode is all about communication style for the Enneagram Type 5. And I have brought with me, Kimberly and Nate. Kimberly and Nate, welcome to the show.
Kimberly (00:39)
Hi, thank you. Thanks for having us.
Nate (00:41)
It's gonna be interesting, for sure. I'm liking this.
Kelsey (00:43)
will be, that's for sure.
Awesome,
Okay, before we get into communication style of the type five, I figured it would be helpful to give just a brief overview of the five. So I would say fives are curious, ⁓ independent thinkers. They are motivated by desire to understand the world, be competent, be knowledgeable. They often bring
I would say deep insight and strategy, thoughtful analysis to the workplace,
they may pull back when they feel overwhelmed or depleted. They may need that time to recharge at their best. think fives are extremely wise and I think they're extremely generous with their energy and their knowledge. So Kimberly, anything you would add to that?
Kimberly (01:31)
That made us sound great. It was good.
Kelsey (01:36)
Nate, what about you? Anything you would add to that?
Nate (01:38)
I think most of that's spot on. think maybe one thing I would add, kind of the running out of energy thing. ⁓ If the energy is needed somewhere, I will just kind of pursue and continue on until I absolutely can take a break. And then it's full break. It's not. So depletion of energy goes fast, but you can run on empty for a very long time before actually needing to kind of settle down.
Kimberly (02:08)
Yeah, very, very aware of the empty. Like when you say running on empty for a time, but very aware of it.
Nate (02:16)
Yeah.
Kelsey (02:18)
fascinating. I have never heard that from a five that I can run on empty. I figured you would be aware of your energy allocation and where you're at battery-wise but running on empty is very impressive I feel like for a five. So that's good insight. Thanks, Nate. Okay, I want to give our listeners or those who are watching a little bit of information on who you are. Not too much information. I want to respect your privacy.
But Kimberly, would you tell us what you do for work?
Kimberly (02:50)
Yeah, I think for me that's kind of hard because my work I feel like is so different. What I do is so different than I consider who I am for me personally because I'm not super involved in just professionally. I started, I got a degree in like theology, philosophy, and I taught a little bit and then I went back to school for design. then once we had kids about my oldest is eight.
So for like the last seven, eight years, I've been more in childcare and I've more recently been stay at home mom.
Kelsey (03:27)
Amazing. Do you feel like a lot of fives jump into theology?
Kimberly (03:29)
you
Yeah, or philosophy or thinking. mean, there's so much that goes into that faith and religion and things that change in your life and stuff. But I think just going into college, I just wanted to be in those groups where people were sitting around talking about ideas, thinking through things. That's all I wanted to do. And then the way that I grew up, that was theology.
more than any other field. didn't learn as much about psychology and all those other ones that I think I would love to maybe go back and do now as well.
Kelsey (04:08)
sure. Yeah, feel like that's very on brand.
So I love that. What with where you're at right now as a mom, what would you say you're enjoying the most?
Kimberly (04:21)
This is gonna sound awful, but my kids are all in school so I have a lot of alone time. I do enjoy being a mom and I do love my children. ⁓ And it is nice to have, it kind of feels like a modem of control a little bit and I do have my time and I'm able to plan things out and you know, manage my energy in some ways so that when they're home for the weekends or like in the evenings, I'm able to enjoy them more because I feel like I'm less.
hoarding of my time and energy. Whereas before when I was working full time and then as a mom, I, there's a lot of responsive doing, you know, it is a little taxing. Even though I love my kids and I love being with them, it has been nice to just be able to pull back and everything is slower. I like the slow pace.
Kelsey (05:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, that doesn't sound bad at all. That sounds lovely. That's good. All right, Nate, tell me a little bit about what you do for work.
Kimberly (05:15)
Yeah.
Nate (05:21)
⁓ Well, I never went to college and as of right now I work as a sales floor lead at a run specialty company and I also do track coaching on the side as well as for high schools. I would say that's more my passion project. I'd love to do that full time but it doesn't exactly pay the bills so we got to add a supplement in there. It's interesting
Kimberly, that you're talking about kind of philosophy, theology, psychology, because that is exactly where my head goes all the time in every conversation. I get bored with the small talk. And I would absolutely love to go in and study more of that if I had the money to go to college. ⁓ yeah, for right now, it's coaching and seeing where I'm going next, getting into psychology, hopefully without a degree somehow.
Kelsey (06:12)
love it. Yep. If anybody could figure it out how to make that happen, I believe a type five could. So I'm excited for you and with the future holds, it's going to be fun. Also wearing multiple hats. How does that work ⁓ as a five who does need that time to recharge?
Nate (06:31)
⁓ well currently because middle of track season, ⁓ and the fact that I'm, I'm working with two schools instead of just one, like somebody would typically do, ⁓ plus work on top of that. It is, it's a lot right now. Honestly, I am extremely overwhelmed and it is kind of that running on empty that we talking about earlier. ⁓ but that's been going for the past couple of months. And it's one of those things where just like, normally I'm going to plan about a week ahead. I keep my entire schedule in my head, not on a calendar. And.
Right now, I can't do that. It has to just be within the day. I've got sticky notes all over my desk with random things written on them of like, I've got to jump back to that or jump back to that. And then I condensed them into one sticky note a day or two later. ⁓ So it's organized chaos, I would say. And it's just, OK, as long as I like what I'm doing and I'm enjoying it, I can kind of make it through this. But as soon as something
isn't sparking interest and it's not absolutely necessary. It's off my plate until I can kind of get back around to it, till you have the more alone time, the low key, and you can switch focus.
Kimberly (07:38)
can relate to that so much. To me, that sounds a lot like when I kind of get into that stressed seven space. It is more like what interests me, it feels a little more frantic. I feel overwhelmed. ⁓ But it is, I like to be in that space where it's slower and I'm able to plan things ahead. But when it gets busy like that and I'm able to go, but it is like day by day and it feels a little.
To me, I wonder how you feel. I feel a little more frantic and I don't necessarily enjoy that feeling, but I can feed off of it and do it.
Nate (08:13)
Yeah, I would say
that's pretty close to where I'm at. It's definitely frantic. It's definitely stressful in some way, shape, form. I almost, I don't know if appreciate it is the right word, but looking back after you have like a specifically chaotic day or moment, or in my case, in the next month after this month, I'll probably look back and I'm like, did I really do all of that at once? Like, that's amazing. I didn't know I could do that.
So knowing and going through that and then knowing that you're capable of ⁓ being able to have that much on your plate and still sort it out efficiently and do well at it, that's the other side of the coin of the stress is the appreciation and the admiration almost of yourself in maybe some selfish kind of way that like, wow, I did that.
Kelsey (09:09)
I think it's very impressive. I love that. That's good. Thank you guys. Kimberly, tell me a little bit, and I know a little bit about this, but tell me a little bit about your journey on how you know you're a type five.
Kimberly (09:22)
Yeah, I first heard of the Enneagram when I was in college and it was like very brief and I thought I was a seven, ⁓ which I've heard from a couple other fives of like those younger years looking a lot like a seven. ⁓ So I, on the outside was very seven. I thought I was a seven. And then when I started learning more, ⁓ like really actually getting into the Enneagram, I typed myself as an eight.
And I was there for like three years and I was like really into the Enneagram and I was learning about it and I was so excited to like figure all these things out and then ⁓ I did a cohort with you and at the start of that cohort it was brought up from the person leading that maybe that wasn't right the quite the right fit we talked about some things and after like two weeks of just like reading and like consuming information I
figured out the five. And it's funny, because now it makes sense, like relating a lot to seven and eight, which is where I go in stress and security. Both of those numbers showed up, but there were so many just differentiations between the eight and the five. And the main, like if it was like, what's the one thing that made me realize or that makes me know without a shadow of a doubt, it's that energy piece. mean, for me, it's a constant thought.
Kelsey (10:44)
Mm-hmm.
Kimberly (10:49)
constantly all the time, anything I'm doing, I'm weighing that. And ⁓ that was kind of like the light bulb moment, if you could know.
Kelsey (10:58)
Yeah,
I love that. I love your response to being told like, hey, eight, I don't think eight fits you. And you go to research and you're like, I'm going to I'm going to go back. I'm going to study. I'm going to read ⁓ very on brand. I feel like.
Kimberly (11:12)
And that
was part of because I was like eight or five eight or five eight or five I don't know and then after like two weeks of like intense I mean all I did was consume information that was a part of it of like oh My gosh, I've just been consuming information like getting more and more and I've never felt like I could have enough information on it so that was a telling point
Kelsey (11:35)
Yes,
for sure, for sure. Thanks, Kimberly. Nate, how about you? How do you know that you're a type five?
Nate (11:42)
a while back I took the test and it was just like, showed me type five wing four. was like, okay, that's, that's what it is. And I don't think it was really until I started working where I'm at now at this, this run specialty place where, um, my manager is very into the Enneagram and kind of, I don't know if she brought up in the interview or how we got on the topic, but kind of sparked my interest to look into it a little bit more here and there. And we'll talk about it often. And, um, I mean,
Initially, when I got the type five results on the test, I worked through all of the types then. And
of itself should be explanatory of looking for the information, trying to find out. ⁓ But it just made sense to me.
was glad that I was a type five. You're happy about it. And I've heard some people say, that's
Maybe not your type then, or that's not how you should determine your type. Your type shouldn't necessarily be happy about it. But I think it is very fitting. ⁓ I did a couple months ago go through and use AI. I'm asking questions, had it put together a test for me to take that's maybe a little bit more in depth, or at least that's what I tried to do. It typed me as a type six, which is very strong in both of my parents, I found out. ⁓
And I just kept pressing it with questions and more questions and more questions to like stress test it to see if it would hold up its answer. And I don't know if AI gives into you, but it ended up folding back into a five. And I do have a very strong four and six wing. So it's close. ⁓ But yeah, I think a lot of times too, like just in real scenarios in daily life, I'll be having conversations with people.
And like the more in-depth conversations, not necessarily superficial or ⁓ small talk, but I will always hit on the points of asking why continuously, wanting the definition of things so that there's no misunderstanding and kind of having that grounding knowledge of ⁓ like, let's make sure there's no misunderstanding or ⁓ kind of disconnect in communication so that nobody gets hurt because of that, because that would be dumb.
And so it's having that, the knowledge base constantly seeking the knowledge and knowledge and knowledge. So that's the big one for me.
Kelsey (14:01)
Kimberly, when you were doing your research, did you find that you liked what you found about the type five or were you like, this type sucks?
Kimberly (14:09)
I liked it. It's funny because I think the only reason I didn't think five before is I didn't consider myself withdrawn. The way I viewed withdrawn was shy and I'm not a shy person. I'm, if anything, why I thought I was eight, I'm a little more aggressive and I go towards things. And I remember hearing about five or when I was like learning about the enneagram and every time I learned about five, I was like, must be nice.
to have that to explain things, that sounds great. I ⁓ mean, I think a lot. wish I could have that explanation. And now I look back and I'm like, duh. But I always thought five, well, it must be nice, but I'm just not withdrawn. I'm so not withdrawn. And then I realized that, know, withdrawn not being shy, but just meaning I pull into myself. ⁓ And for example, when ⁓ Joey, she was the one that...
mentioned Joey and Billy that maybe you're not an eight. And when they said that, they said the most common mistyping is six and they're explaining all of this. And I just went and I was just listening and kind of whatever. And then when I met with them again and they said, maybe you're not a six because you just went away. Like when we told you that it's like you just went to a different place. And I've had that said to me a lot before ⁓ in a lot of scenarios, like where'd you go? Where'd you just go there?
⁓ So then once I was able to differentiate withdrawn from shy, then I got to be a five. But yeah, I did. I like five. I really like being a five.
Kelsey (15:46)
Okay, so when you're pulling back, you're saying you're withdrawing, that's where you go. You're going into your mind. Okay.
Kimberly (15:54)
Yeah, ⁓
into my thoughts, into my mind maps. I don't know how you would describe it, Nate, but just going into myself, I guess. Yeah.
Nate (16:04)
Yeah, would. mean, as you're talking about this, I'm going into my mind, I'm kind of disconnecting a little bit. I'm trying to figure out like, am I doing this? And I definitely do going back to kind of a lot of the conversations I have with people or groups of people. I will often be the last one to talk out of choice on any specific topic because A, I want to hear what everybody else has to say and kind of incorporate that into my thought process and be able to hit on it. Whether it's just giving them a response or maybe adding on to what they're saying.
But in order to do that, you have to take what they're saying, then, and then internalize it and build around it almost. Even if you don't have the hard facts and objectively true knowledge around whatever the topic is, you can create your own inferences and logic around it and build that up. But it's hard to do that externally. And a lot of times when I find myself doing that externally or I'm comfortable enough to do that externally,
to the other person who probably isn't a type five, it just seems like I'm rambling. It makes no sense whatsoever. And maybe I'll hit on this later too, but when I get to that point, sometimes my brain goes faster than my mouth can go. And then I'm skipping points and what I'm saying, and they look confused. And I'm like, everything made sense, but that's because there's certain parts that only showed up internally.
Kelsey (17:27)
For sure, for sure. Okay, with that, let's talk about the communication style of the five. ⁓ It's been described as analytical, thoughtful, sometimes direct. Kimberly, would you agree with those? ⁓ If not, why not? And if so, why and what would you add?
Kimberly (17:46)
Yeah, I would definitely agree with those. Especially the analytical, kind of what Nate was just saying of like when I pull into my head and I'm processing all of it and I'm piecing it out and I'm thinking of it usually pretty... I know a lot of people don't love the words like subjective and objective, but it's not necessarily about the emotions of the people, but it's about what's actually happened, what's actually being said, what... ⁓
what are kind of like the facts of the situation. ⁓ But yeah, very analytical. And I think I had actually written down another
selective.
Kelsey (18:28)
Ooh, tell me more.
Kimberly (18:29)
when I am discussing anything, whether it's ideas or just relationally,
am going into my head a lot and processing a lot and I'm only sharing part of it. Sometimes because it's coming here faster than it's able to come out and some because I maybe don't feel the need, especially personal things.
not sharing a lot of that and so I'm choosing what's effective to share because I don't want to use up all my energy communicating something I don't think you're gonna grasp I'm gonna give you the information I think you need you know I'm thinking 10 things and I'm picking out the three that are vital so I don't have to talk through all 10 ⁓ it's like picking and telling and I'm definitely not sharing everything that I'm thinking about it especially if there's personal
aspects of it.
Kelsey (19:23)
Okay, I'm curious because before we started recording, I was asking you some personal questions like how are your kids doing? And your response was good. And then you asked me and I'm telling you my kids are in flag football and giving you all these details. Is that an example of some selective sharing? Or was that just more of like, hey, things are great. They're good.
Kimberly (19:44)
Yeah, ⁓ don't think it occurs to me to give a lot of details.
And I think different numbers can have that for different reasons. it's not, I'm never gonna lie. I'm not gonna say it's good if it's not good. And I'm not gonna be sneaky, but it just doesn't occur to me to go into a bunch of detail. If it's detail about like an idea, then I go deep, deep, deep, deep, deep.
Or like even like being on this podcast, I'm not telling a ton of people. I'm not, it doesn't occur to
I was on a call earlier and they're like, oh, what do you have next? And I was like, oh, you know, I'm gonna have lunch. And I'm not like being sneaky, I was having lunch after. I didn't wanna go into.
what the podcast was for, because it wasn't a very person. I didn't know them as well, you know, just.
Kelsey (20:36)
Yeah, really good example. Thank you. All
right, Nate, what would you add about communication style, direct, thoughtful, analytical? Do you agree?
Nate (20:46)
I agree. And also to hit on kind of the selective too, I would definitely agree with that. ⁓ I find it depends on the person if ⁓ kind of analyzing them and seeing if whatever you're talking about, if they can handle the 10 thoughts instead of the three that you have selected, then I will start going into the 10. But if I get the feeling that you're not going to grasp it you're not going to benefit or be able to engage in conversation with
the rest of the thoughts that I'm having, like, I'm just not going to bring them up, I'm going to probably disengage and also kind of with the day to day stuff. mean, someone asks you what you're doing next. I feel like part of that maybe isn't just a type five thing, but it's more of a societal like small talk and oh, just brush it off and you give the normal answer. And, um, but then for maybe four to five, at least for me, I find that as even more, I don't know if it's draining, but it's just like insignificant. It's like, why do I don't want to
So I'm going to give a short answer and get out of this unless we go to something deeper and meaningful. The other word that had come to my mind in addition to those was thorough. A lot of times I will, especially in those deeper conversations, I'm going to hit on every single point that I can think of, again, for the lack of or trying to create a lack of miscommunication in any way, shape, or form. ⁓ And so I feel like with
the thoughtful that kind of maybe leaks over into Thoreau. But I definitely wanted to
Kimberly (22:20)
I think that's interesting, like the thorough, because it seems so opposite of selective, but I also would agree with that. I think something that...
Okay, so like, do fives want a ton of details on personal and small talk? No. But I do want information and I want the details and I'll share it with you if it's important. ⁓ Like we are in the thinking head triad. ⁓ And so I think people think, we don't want any information because it wastes time, but I want all the information. So for example, if we're working together and I say to you, ⁓ Kelsey, did you get that spreadsheet done?
I find that people give me tons of information that I don't care about. It's like a personal thing and this and don't be mad at, like they're assuming I'm mad and so they go into this emotional space and they give me superfluous context of all these things and I literally, I just want to know about the spreadsheet but I do want information like no, I'll have it done by one or I need this information first to do it. Like in,
Context to what I'm talking about because then I have I can make a decision Like okay, that's not gonna be done to one so I can work on this until like I I want information But I don't want the subjective emotional Like when it gets into or are they mad? I'm never mad at you I just want the spreadsheet and if it's not done. I'm not mad or if I am that I will say
I'm upset because we needed this at this time. Can it be done by this time? But I also don't hold that. But I find with a lot of especially like ones, twos, and sixes, it immediately goes into the relational space and they have tons of relational information based on assumptions that I'm not there. So it's that selective but thorough, I want the information that's relevant. I'm going to give you information I think is relevant.
But it's usually not, ⁓ it's a pretty practical thing for me at
Nate (24:32)
I like that too. I've almost, as you're saying that I'm thinking about kind of the more emotional side of someone's giving you an explanation of why something didn't happen or why something did happen. ⁓ Part of me wonders and I'm starting to kind of look into the more emotional side, being a head type is begrudgingly. ⁓ In a scenario like that, does the explanation that they're giving you on the emotion, the non-informational side.
give you information on where they're at instead of just trying to be an explanation because what I'm thinking is almost ⁓ like, okay, if they're super emotional about the fact that they didn't get a spreadsheet done and they're kind of sorry about that to you, is that maybe telling me or you or whoever's in the scenario that, okay, I need to maybe kind of dig a little bit more into like what's going on with them? Like, do I need to help them out with something? And that's going to
give information in a different sort of way. It's not straight emotional. It's not them just telling you the story, but it's giving you information on how you need to support them or react to them or something along those lines. And then I was going to just add on kind of on the same tangent there of the initial words that you gave of direct, I feel like is almost with how I communicate as being thorough, that almost pulls direct out of the pool.
Because I tend to kind of like hit around a point and cover a larger area, get a baseline first, which wouldn't be direct. And then I get to the main point and it's like, okay, now that we know all the context, here's what I'm trying to get at.
Kelsey (26:13)
Yeah. Kimberly, do you agree with that? Do you relate or resonate with that?
Kimberly (26:19)
I so. When you say that, do you mean like in terms of like you're trying to figure out where the conversation needs to go or what needs to happen before you laser in on it? Or what do you mean by that?
Nate (26:31)
Yeah,
so ⁓ I guess just for a specific example, I do go to some groups who are talking about kind of theology and faith and
like, we'll have some disagreements there not heated, but it's just like trying to figure out what's right. And a lot of times, I will be
very aware, I'll say, of kind of the different contexts people are coming from or the different viewpoints based on usually definitions. I know I was trying to explain a concept a few weeks ago in one of these groups, and I was using some words and constructing a diagram and all this stuff, and they were all not having it. was just like, they were like, nope, that's absolutely wrong. And then I don't remember the specific line of questioning that I asked, but it
It came down to the fact that the definitions they had of the words in their head were completely different from the ones that I had in my head. And so if we don't address that, then things get messy really fast. And so I will go out of my way to try and clarify those definitions before we then get to the main point of what we're actually trying to talk.
Kimberly (27:40)
Yes, absolutely. like differentiating, like getting deeper, not just like, yeah, like you said, assuming we all are on the same exact vocabulary of this word or yeah, cultural backgrounds that come into it, getting all of those. Yeah, like when it's a conversation like that, for sure. Yeah.
Nate (27:44)
Mm-hmm.
It's not even maybe necessarily just definitions, but I mean, it could be just thought processes or pictures in your head, depending on how people are thinking and things like that, just being on the same page.
Kelsey (28:12)
my takeaway from this is that Fives are selectively thorough. And I love that. I think that's
Kimberly, when it comes to communication, what would you say you do well?
Kimberly (28:26)
I would say, I'm not sure the wording on this, but being able to maybe articulate what the group is trying to say. I'm thinking kind of in a scenario where there's multiple people, like if it's a discussion on philosophy or a group dynamic, but kind of sitting back and listening to what everybody's trying to say and telling, kind like you said, like you can tell
people aren't hearing each other or getting what they're saying and maybe a little bit of pattern recognition and then being able to say, okay, this is what's happening, that you're saying this, but you're hearing it like this and you're meaning it like this and this is how we can define it and then having it be like, okay, yeah. Or if someone is, if it's one-on-one and they're, you know, saying all of these things and maybe there's a lot of emotion behind it.
being able to maybe kind of pick out what's important and present it to them to kind of narrow it down to what's important for the conversation, whether it's philosophy or personal or whatever, but that ability to kind of articulate, I guess.
Kelsey (29:44)
Yeah, that's phenomenal. love that. Nate, what about you? What do you do well when it comes to communicating?
Nate (29:50)
I definitely agree with that, the articulation and being able to kind of bring people who are seemingly disconnected in what they're saying and thinking, even though they're talking about pretty much the same thing, being able to be a medium for that and bring everybody to the same space with words. And then on top of that, I would say, I don't know if this would necessarily be considered communication directly, but I tend to
poke questions. don't know if you guys know what steel manning is. I know that's a ⁓ kind of a buzz term maybe at the moment in certain ⁓ subsections of society, but ⁓ it's kind of making an argument for the other side that you don't necessarily agree with. And so a lot of times I'll be having conversations with people will be talking about things and ⁓ maybe there is that disconnect, but then you do bring everybody on the same page and then you push it further and you're like, okay, well, what about this?
I don't necessarily believe it, but like, how are we going to respond to ⁓ kind of bring it to a work scenario? It's like, what if this goes wrong? What if this goes wrong? What is, what is the plan then? Do we have, and then what, how much do we have to worry about? Because I feel like in a lot of those scenarios that I find myself in where I'm doing that, it's like, you bring up this idea that no one had even thought about. Like it, wasn't even in the back recess of their mind and you just brought it to the surface and they're like, ⁓ yeah, we should probably talk about that. ⁓
So kind of bringing new ideas to light. I don't know if you guys are familiar with CliftonStrengths, but my top one is ideation, which is completely on par with that and probably somehow tied into Type V as well.
Kelsey (31:31)
sure. Yeah, I hear a little bit of that six-wing too of what how are we going to respond to this and anticipating some things. So I love that. ⁓ That's really well said both of you guys. Thank you. Now on the flip side, Kimberly, where do you think that you could improve when it comes to communication?
Kimberly (31:50)
Yeah, something I've been thinking a lot about lately is...
Trying to focus on just because I'm right doesn't mean the other person's wrong. ⁓ And as Fives, we think we're right a lot. And I think often we kind of are. We've thought about a lot, a lot to get to the place we are. And there's a lot of pride in that thought process. ⁓ And we'll feel pretty strongly that we're correct. ⁓ But just realizing that I can be correct.
and still missing something that they're seeing. Like it doesn't automatically make them wrong. They might just be right in a different way. And especially when it comes to that, like relational, social, emotional, learning to give more merit to that because I think it's easy to be dismissive of like if there's group dynamics and you know, people are maybe not
Acting in a way that I think is logical I can it can be true that they are not acting Logically or in a way that would effectively finish this the quickest ⁓ and They are Correct in what they're gauging and giving more merit to that even and and logically sometimes as well, but yeah, just cuz Or just cuz they might be wrong doesn't mean I'm right
kind of theme.
Kelsey (33:25)
Beautifully said. love that. That's great. Thank you. Nate, what about you?
Nate (33:31)
⁓ I would agree on the emotional front. think the biggest one for me that I have yet to make significant progress on is kind of just acknowledgement of, ⁓ emotions or, ⁓ what other people have said, because a lot of times I will get, whether that's information or it is kind of the small talk or it's someone's explaining to me how their day went or whatever it is. ⁓ I will immediately internalize that kind of
do the disconnect that we were talking about earlier, go into my mind and then just kind of extrapolate off of it, continue the conversation from there. And there's, there's no emotion, there's no acknowledgement of like how they're feeling or how they did or whatever else. And so I feel like communication wise, maybe not like direct vocabulary communication, but more of again, the emotional kind of intuitive communication between person to person, especially in a one-to-one conversation can.
⁓ Again, depending on the other person, maybe offset them or put them off a little bit of like, he didn't even acknowledge that I said that I don't really want to talk to him anymore. ⁓ So that kind of thing. I think also, and maybe this is good for, I think it's a good for a lot of people. This is the, think I'm right thing. ⁓ Awareness of other people in their situations, because I do feel like I have a lot of awareness of where people are, where they're coming from, when I'm having conversations or ⁓ just.
I don't even like again, coaching track and seeing the two different track teams that I'm working with right now. And like the coaching styles from the head coaches and having the awareness of how they're being brought up, how they're being taught, and then using that information to then ⁓ determine how I'm going to work with the specific athletes that I'm working with. The awareness portion of that and communication, I think is a behind the scenes thing, but
something that I've started to work on a little bit more, whereas ⁓ maybe in a slightly more unhealthy five type, it's just like, well, this is how things need to be done. I just need to do it this way without any context of where you're coming from.
Kelsey (35:43)
That's good insight.
what I'm hearing you say is maybe engaging with the emotions of the other person so they're not feeling as dismissed maybe by the escape of withdrawing into your mind. Is that what you were saying? Is that right?
Nate (35:58)
Yeah, body language, facial expressions, things like that. You hear something and you kind of just go blank and maybe pause for a second. Eyes jet off to the side because you're thinking about it. But then to that other person, it's going to seem like, he's just not interested.
Kelsey (36:15)
Kimberly, any thoughts on that?
Kimberly (36:17)
Yeah, I get that. think it's funny in a way sometimes I think growing up as a female five there is a little
I don't know what the word would be that I would use, but it's been nice because as a woman you were taught consistently at a very young age to look at other people's emotions and their needs. And that didn't necessarily stick because I'm a five, like that's not my strength. But as a five who is geared away from that, to have that lesson consistently was, I think, good for me. Whereas like maybe as a one or a two or a six, that consistent lesson was just
pressure and too much, but for me that was good to have that reminder consistently. And so I think as a woman that comes a little easier, not easy, but easier just to sit with that and to not necessarily I don't feel like I connect, but to show up in a way that the other person may need. Like I can gauge a little better where they're at and
be with them in it, even though maybe I'm not emotionally in it with them, but I can physically.
be there better, show up to them. And maybe I'm making a lot of assumptions there. I'd be curious what you think about that, ⁓ But that was, I mean, just consistently all the time as a young girl. You're like, how do they feel? How do they feel? You're asked that consistently all the time. And girls are always, your friends are giving you feedback consistently about how you made them feel. And so you're able to analyze that and then
change how I come to it, I guess. I don't know. What do you think about that theory?
Nate (38:12)
I
that makes sense to me, right? As a type five, you headspace it, you put the emotions up into the head, you kind of analyze it. You're like, OK, how do I need to show up and show affection or emotion back to whoever you're with? I almost feel like I am the inverse of that. So instead of, in a scenario like that, showing up physically, which is what I need to work on, that's the communication thing that I think is probably top priority for me. ⁓
I also, I have a very strong wing for that is my official wing quote unquote. And so I do have a lot of kind of that feeling at heart. And I feel like I've got a lot of empathy if I'm using the right word there for other people, like I can feel what they're feeling, I can make sense of it, but I don't necessarily show the outward expression of, ⁓ of that empathy. Like I'm not necessarily comforting to them or in for whatever reason, whether that's just kind of maybe not wanting to seem.
⁓ like to or giving them pity, I guess would be a way to put it or something like that in a negative ⁓ connotation. But yeah, being able to like, I don't I don't feel like I have a lot of issues with being able to feel what other people are feeling. But it's the the expression of showing them that I actually do feel for them and showing them that I care because all that gets internalized in the head.
Kimberly (39:36)
Yeah, so much is happening up here in those scenarios.
something that really struck with me is when you said you didn't want
seem like you were pitying them. That's huge for me. I'm never going to placate you. do not want... Authenticity, I think, is really important for fives. And that's one of the reasons I kind of thought I was an eight. I think there's a differentiation there of why.
you need authenticity, but
yeah, I do not want someone to lie to me. I don't wanna waste people's time or energy. ⁓ And that I might not say everything. I might be selective of what I say, but it will be honest. Always, every time.
Yeah, I'm never gonna pity you either.
Kelsey (40:20)
appreciate that. Thank you for not pitying me. That's very kind. Okay, Kimberly, I want to touch on something you said earlier. ⁓ Fives are very objective, logical thinkers. And one thing that the Enneagram has taught me recently that I was very surprised by is that ones can be subjective and or ones are subjective. And so it is helpful.
Kimberly (40:23)
Thank
Kelsey (40:48)
when somebody comes to me with logic, because I can get caught up in how I'm feeling about it. And so
if somebody's coming to me, I appreciate the directness. I appreciate that here, have you considered this logical explanation? And so those are some ways that I appreciate people communicating to me. How would you say you appreciate people communicating to you, Kimberly?
Kimberly (41:14)
I appreciate directness and mostly because of the energy thing. I really struggle. Like if I know you're upset with me, like when someone is saying consistently like to the group, like little hits, like they're not saying I'm mad at Kim or I'm mad about this thing, but they're just, and I can pick up on that.
And then I'll bring up something to give you a chance and, oh no, I'm not mad blah, blah, blah. And you're like, you're wasting a lot of my time and energy by not just saying it. You can say it. There's no one I think other than a five that could effectively hear that as well without taking it personally on you. If you're mad at me, I may disagree with you, but you can say it. Like you can tell me anything objectively and like, it's fine.
And so when you're not saying it, that's... It's ironic because there's that... They're not saying it because they don't want to hurt your feelings or they're not saying it because they don't want you to be mad and that's what makes me mad. I'm rarely upset with you for what you bring to me.
But I am often annoyed when you aren't saying it. That's a really, really hard space for me. Like we all know, but we can't talk about it.
And so nothing can solve it and it's just gonna keep wasting emotional and sometimes physical or mental energy. So if you could just be absolutely direct, I appreciate that.
Kelsey (42:48)
Yeah, that's great. Because then we can solve the problem, whatever it is. If we know what it is, we can move forward. And that's great.
Kimberly (42:50)
Yeah.
Yeah, and if I disagree, can say that. ⁓ And then we can agree to disagree or work out a compromise, but we can't do that if we can't talk about it. That's, yeah, that's for me probably number
Kelsey (42:57)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
awesome. I love it. Thank you, Nate. What about you?
Nate (43:13)
Very similar, very same
the annoyance of when people are obviously not being direct with you, but there's something that is slightly off is more annoying than just being direct. And I have found myself in positions, even though it makes me slightly nervous of like being in a conversation with somebody and like very bluntly asking them.
a question that would make them be direct with me. And what's even more annoying than them not being direct in the first place is when you ask the question and put it blunt and they're still not very direct. And it's like, OK, we need to get to the bottom of this. ⁓ So yes, that is being direct, being open. ⁓ Even if I would honestly rather have full openness than maybe straight open or openness versus straightforward directness.
Like if, as long as you're completely open with what you're thinking, even if you need to describe it in a little bit more detail or give some emotion behind it, like I would rather have the full transparency than being direct and missing something there. And I think that kind of goes into the other thing that I was thinking about was if someone's trying to communicate something to me in whatever scenario we're in, I do want ⁓ high detail.
But I want the details to be important, obviously, because we don't need the fluff. It just needs to be what's important. And the thing that often comes to my mind, and I feel like I do this on the flip side. So if someone's giving you directions to go somewhere, whether that's in a car or you're on foot somewhere at, I don't know, a park or something, very, very strict directions on like, OK, you're going to see this, and then you go this way, and there's this thing. And once you see that, then you do it like,
all of the different points. And I will even go so far as to send someone like a picture of a map with something circled and landmarks like all over it within the area that we're working with. if someone on the flip side, if someone's explaining to me directions and they're just like, yeah, go up the stairs and to the right. like, there's like seven different doors here. What are we doing? Which one do I need to go for? And so giving complete information with the thoughts and ideas.
that we're working with is very important.
Kimberly (45:33)
And that's that selective thoroughness. when I love that analogy, because partially what I was thinking is, yeah, I want every, I want, if you know there's seven steps, tell me seven steps up and then this, more information the better. What I don't want is, and on this corner I had my first kiss, and this is the, like these details that have nothing to do with directions, you know? And there's a flower here that's beautiful. don't, I mean care about beautiful flowers, but.
That information this billboard used to be a Pepsi billboard, but now it's I don't need that information But I want tons of information about what's relevant. Yeah
Kelsey (46:14)
I love that. That was so well said from both of you. I feel like it's such a phenomenal example of I want the details that are important and that matter, not the fluff. So y'all did a phenomenal job with that. Thank you. Okay, when it comes to Enneagram types, we all have something that we feel misunderstood about. So what would you say, Nate, you would like other people to know about you being a five?
Nate (46:44)
The amount of productive time that I feel like I spend in my head, just, it's not, it's not a laziness, it's not a like total disconnect from the world. mean, in some sense it is, but it's, it's not like I'm trying to be seclusive just for the sake of being seclusive. It is like, as we're having a conversation, I need the time to think, I want you to give me time before I respond to.
the seemingly very simple question that you asked because I want to give you the most accurate and full answer that I can, especially if it's important to me or the person is important to me because I don't want to unintentionally mislead you on something that ⁓ isn't there. But I feel like a lot of times when you do take that time, whether it's, ⁓ I don't know, waiting a day to send a text back on something important or just
like five minutes in a conversation, somebody asks you a question, you sit there for two minutes. Like I want the understanding from other people that that time that I'm spending, whether that's in silence or just non-communication or waiting is not me just kind of putting you off. It's me spending the time and being intentional about creating a full response.
Kelsey (47:58)
That's great. I love it. Kimberly, how about you?
Kimberly (48:02)
That's very similar to what I was gonna say of like, if you see me pull back or I'm not engaging, it is not because I'm upset. I'm probably not upset with you. I mean, if we're in an emotional altercation, maybe I'm a little upset, but I'm not thinking about that and being wounded. I'm processing what you're saying. I'm thinking it through. I'm analyzing. I'm pulling in information from previous things. if you see me withdrawing.
or pulling into myself or pulling back. ⁓ Don't assume that I don't know or that I'm upset. I just need a moment because there's 25 rapid fire, like a library, like circling through and I'm processing it really fast, but it just takes a moment to get the thousand things I'm thinking into the three things that are worth talking about or engaging with.
Kelsey (48:57)
That's good. Thank you guys.
we're gonna end on a positive note here. So Kimberly, what do you like best or most about being a Type 5?
Kimberly (49:07)
Yeah, I like that we're so in our head and that it is a place that is interesting. It's full of wonder. Like I never really feel bored. was listening to a podcast about like the importance of boredom and I thought I was doing it so wrong because I, people would talk about that and the importance of like sitting and being bored and getting bored and how that's like when your juices start playing and I thought for a while I was doing it wrong. Like I'm not able to.
get to that place and I realized like that's the place we're all trying to get is like I can I could sit for three hours with nothing but my head and it's never ever boring there's always something to wonder I might get slightly irritated because I want a quick look something up on my phone but if I didn't have a phone or a book or TV or anything I could happily sit there for an entire day and I like that like it's like liking being with myself but it's not
necessarily myself. I like being with whatever scenario I'm able to.
work through or problem that I'm working through. I just enjoy it.
Kelsey (50:16)
Yeah, that is fascinating
to me because that sounds miserable to
sit three hours just in my mind, the inner critic would have a heyday with that. Like you're being lazy. So I resonate stronger with doing, and I wonder if that, I mean, has everything to do with our intelligence centers. ⁓ You being a thinker, me being a doer, that's fascinating.
Kimberly (50:28)
Yeah.
Yeah,
one thinking and then doubling back and thinking again and then I'll maybe finally do. It's hard to get me to do, but I enjoyed just thinking. Yeah.
Kelsey (50:52)
Great. I love it. Thank you. Nate, what about you? What do you enjoy most or best about being a five?
Nate (50:59)
Yeah. Well, strictly hitting on that last bit, the doing piece, I find that a lot of times I ⁓ have these elaborate thoughts and ideas and processes and then I go to do it. like, I don't have near the amount of resources that I need to have in order to do this thing. And so out the window it goes and start again. ⁓ Slightly annoying. yeah, mean, mine is pretty close to the exact same thing. It's being able to kind of be in your head to have this
landscape of ideas and thought processes and maybe sometimes they're not always the best thing. ⁓ Not in the fact that they're negative, but they might be kind of a simulated reality that, now you're not in actual reality and kind of then actual reality starts to suck because you've got the simulated one that's so much better. I do think that in today's day and age where everything is so online and there's a lot less social connection,
in person between people that it is a nice trait to have because like you're saying I have sat in my room before for Five six hours staring at a wall and I did nothing and I got done and I was like did I actually just do that? I didn't think I would have been able to ⁓ but yeah, it you absolutely can like if you especially if I've come off of a very busy period and Like there's just tons of things on my mind whether it's what I have to do in the future or it's just things that I
particularly want to think about and ⁓ idealize about or create in my mind first, ⁓ I can get caught in that loop, which I do like of like, okay, we're just gonna sit, we're gonna think about all of these things, and that's going to be relieving there. And I also think this would be a good time to mention too is if we're looking at compliments from other people, one of the biggest ones or the one, the compliment that gives me kind of the
the most ⁓ intense kind of internal reaction. don't know if it's necessarily emotional, like, I guess of gratitude and emotion, like internal gratitude is especially at work when someone says that, you explained that so well, or you have so much knowledge and you should be this. Like that just lights me up inside. It's like, okay, that's ⁓ one of my favorite parts of it being a type five too, is just being able to have the articulation of
of thoughts, I think is something you have to build on top of. I fives are really good at having the thoughts, but then expressing them clearly is, is the next level up. And so that is something that I very much appreciate about being a type five is being able to do that.
Kelsey (53:40)
it. That's so good. That is so good. You guys both did a phenomenal job articulating the type five. So I appreciate your time. I appreciate your energy. I appreciate your wisdom. Thank you both for sharing and for being on the show.
Kimberly (53:57)
Yeah, thank you. This was great.
Nate (53:57)
Absolutely.