TWE Podcast Episode 21: Wings Type 9
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Jamie Roucloux: [00:00:00] If I'm in a meeting and I'm like, okay, we've, we've got to stop. Here's, here's my perspective. Please hear me now. Yes. But then, you know, I look back later and I typically in true nine fashion, then I have to apologize. Like I'm, I'm sorry that I, I'm sorry that I asserted this,
Kelsey Taylor: sorry that you're being so mean that I had to respond so hard or so directly.
Jamie Roucloux: Yes. Yeah. So in true Nine fashion, then I apologize for it.
Kelsey Taylor: Welcome back to another episode of the Working Enneagram podcast, where we talk about the Enneagram in the context of work. I'm your host, Kelsey Taylor, and I am thrilled about the two guests that we have on the show today, who are both Enneagram Nines. First, we have Trey Johnson, who is an associate and youth pastor for a Baptist church.
Welcome to the show, Trey.
Trey Johnson: Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.
Kelsey Taylor: And then our second guest is Jamie Roucloux, who's also a longtime friend of mine, one of my bridesmaids. She is a [00:01:00] community specialist and a bookkeeper with an architectural review company. Thanks for being on the show, Jamie. Yeah, it's a pleasure.
Okay, tell us a little bit about what it means to be an architectural review community specialist and bookkeeper. What is entailed in all of that?
Jamie Roucloux: We work with master planned communities, started in the Austin area and now have moved in other areas of Texas. And what we do is we make sure that the developer's vision for the community is followed. And we do that by looking at builder's plans for what they're going to be building there.
Kelsey Taylor: Is that something that you just dreamed about being as a little girl?
Jamie Roucloux: No, I did not know that this was a thing. It fell into my lap and I have loved it. It's been the job I've been at the longest, so. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: What do you attest that to?
Trey Johnson: I think really the team that we work with. So my boss was actually a friend before and I applied for the job not knowing it was her company.
Kelsey Taylor: That's awesome.
Jamie Roucloux: So fell into my lap, but it's just been an extreme blessing. The flexibility. It's an interesting [00:02:00] job, but it's low stakes. And this allowed me to have a career and also be a mother and I can't say enough good things about it.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that. That's awesome. Trey, how about you? Have you always wanted to be a pastor?
Trey Johnson: I wouldn't say that. I'm a pastor's kid. So I grew up in the church. And so there's always that little bit of you know, seeing sides of ministry that are less appealing than others, but I would say ever since I was 16. Yeah, I never Thought of or even think it's possible to do anything else.
Kelsey Taylor: That is amazing. Y'all are both PKs, which is pastors kids. Yeah, so tell me about your experience growing up as a pastors kid.
Trey Johnson: It was a wonderful experience. Most of my growing up was in Oklahoma and all of my extended family is all in Texas. And so, kind of further away from our extended family, our family, immediate family, got really close knit. And so, the way that we were around church [00:03:00] was really... Everybody's ministry. It was we were all a part of it together.
And so growing up in the church in that way I know a lot of people who were pastor's kids that had like really bad Experiences and really just awful things they got exposed to seeing kind of just the whole side That was never my experience. Every church that I've been a part of it felt like a family.
And I think the biggest thing for me was my parents. Ministry was never a job and that's never been how I ever looked at. It was a nine to five job because of the way I was grown up, but me and and my sisters and even my mom, we always felt like we were our dad's first ministry. Like he was ministering to us and we never had anything to rebel against, honestly.
There was nowhere we wanted to run that was more appealing.
Kelsey Taylor: It's really cool. I love that. [00:04:00] That's not the common story that I hear. I know. I appreciate that.
Trey Johnson: Very blessed by that.
Kelsey Taylor: That's awesome. How about you, Jamie?
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah, I think there can be negative experience to being a pastor's kid and I certainly experienced some things unless you are in that position.
Like we always knew if there was a phone call late at night, like something bad has happened. And I guess that could be true in a regular household, but a pastor's house tends to get more of those calls.
Kelsey Taylor: Right.
Jamie Roucloux: But overall, you know, it was a good experience growing up and I'm glad that I had that foundation and that I was able to then leave home and, you know, think about what I believed, but I had that foundation. I think it's a testament to my parents ministry together that I am still in church and want to be involved. Seeing my parents persevere through that and through hard times that they experienced, I think really was formative for me. So, I would say overall really great experience and would not change anything about that.
Trey Johnson: That's good. Yeah. That's good. Jamie, you may want to speak to this [00:05:00] too. I know for me, looking back, just my upbringing, whenever, cause it's easy to make this sound like the church is like this gangster organization behind the scenes is dark. And that's not what I mean. Whenever I say that, you see the other side of it really, it was the toll of ministry that you see as a pastor's kid, that it takes, if it's your father, who's a pastor, then it takes, you see that happen to them. I mean, that's been kind of my experience.
I don't know if that's the same for you.
Jamie Roucloux: Well, and funnily enough, my husband is also a pastor's kid.
Kelsey Taylor: Yes.
Jamie Roucloux: So we've talked a lot about how isolating ministry can be. Yeah. When, when you're in a leadership position like that, knowing you don't always get invited to things or you don't have as close of friends because You know, people might be judging you about something or, well, I'm not going to invite him to this party because whatever, you know, because of the pastor or whatever.
Kelsey Taylor: We're going to have alcohol and we can't invite the pastor.
Jamie Roucloux: Definitely not. Definitely not. So, so see, you know, like [00:06:00] some of that seeing my parents go through and not, and I don't think people intentionally isolate them, but just knowing like that's part of the job and that's, that's part of their experience.
Kelsey Taylor: I imagine pastors isolate themselves to unintentionally in that they're like, I don't want to share the burdens I'm experiencing and put that on someone else. And so they hold on to things not really knowing, is there a safe place for me to process through? All right. Well, thank y'all for letting me kind of go off on this little bunny trail on PK and what it's like. I appreciate that.
We will dive into some more of the nine stuff and just to kind of give our listeners a vision for where we're going to go. My hope for our time together is to show listeners what it is like to be a nine, how flexible nines can be, how kind, the relationship that you have with anger.
Maybe we can touch into that and be curious to know. And then how you approach your work from the perspective of a nine. And then maybe where the wings, that One wing and the Eight wing where they might show up at work if they do it all. But before we kind of dive deep into that, Jamie, tell [00:07:00] me, what is your favorite thing about your job right now?
Jamie Roucloux: Hmm. I think one of my favorite things, and this is kind of strange, but we are a company of just women. Yes. And I, I don't know why, but I feel like it just makes our place really special. My boss, who is the creator of our company, started this. just as a contractor doing this by herself. When she first had kids, she left the workforce and then realized quickly she needed some extra income.
So she did this out of her bedroom for many years, just herself while she raised kids. And then once her kids were kind of grown and she realized you know, maybe I could do more with this, it's just been very fun to be part of that for the last few years of watching the business grow and being in an environment that's just women empowering women.
Kelsey Taylor: Yeah.
Trey Johnson: That's really cool.
Kelsey Taylor: Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I imagine there is an element of feeling like a extended family when you're working in somebody's garage.
Jamie Roucloux: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we're just we're all that [00:08:00] close.
Kelsey Taylor: So I love that. Yeah, that's awesome. Trey, how about you? What's the most fun thing about your job right now? What are you enjoying?
Trey Johnson: Youth ministry side I have awesome students that I absolutely adore. I, I just turned 30 this year and so that's always the weird year of youth ministry where you're like double the age of the kids that you're ministering to. It's a pretty surreal feeling.
Kelsey Taylor: Do they think you're old?
Trey Johnson: Yes, they do. In fact, they were kind of surprised to find out that I turned 30. They told me I looked 42 the other day.
Jamie Roucloux: That is rude.
Trey Johnson: I almost lost my job slapping it in the face. It's fine. You don't have to keep that in the podcast, by the way.
Kelsey Taylor: Keep it in.
Trey Johnson: No but other than just getting to hang out with these awesome kids, the privilege of just studying and teaching the Word of God is, is the thing that in ministry, I've always what I find is the most impactful. Messages or lessons are the lessons that speak to me [00:09:00] first before I ever present them to anybody else. Because if, if, if the Holy Spirit is stirring in me in this, then that's kind of a indication to me that this is something that... Is worthy of, of sharing, and so, being, being sensitive to that, that's, and discovering that, that's really the thing that I love the most about what I get to do.
Kelsey Taylor: That's fun. There's an element of energy, when you are invested and you're excited, the kids pick up on that, and they get excited.
Trey Johnson: Oh yeah. So that's in adults too because I get to the opportunity of ministering as well with my job to the parents of these students to amazing. It's really the same methodology for me. It's studying God's word, finding what's stirring my soul and then bearing that out with, with others.
Kelsey Taylor: Yeah. I love that. On the flip side of this coin, what is the most challenging aspect of your job right now?
Jamie Roucloux: For probably the last year. Year and a half have been in a constant season of change and fluxx, which is not, [00:10:00] my strong suit.
Kelsey Taylor: That's hard for nines.
Jamie Roucloux: It's, it's, we are growing quickly and there are things to be really proud of, but with that growth comes a lot of change. Mm-hmm. . So adding new staff, which can't complain about it all. We have a great, a great team and then a lot of tech changes, which I am kind of at the head of, so a lot of that's riding on me, and that's a little, a little challenging.
Kelsey Taylor: Yes.
Jamie Roucloux: But, yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: I love the way that Nines can tactfully, you know communicate their challenges, instead of like, it's hard, but it's okay, it's hard, but it's okay,
Jamie Roucloux: it's great, I'm doing good, yeah,
Trey Johnson: it's partial coping as well,
Jamie Roucloux: that's it, yeah,
Kelsey Taylor: that's amazing. Trey, how about you? What's challenging right now for you?
Trey Johnson: Well, right now, end of July, beginning of August, sort of time in season, that's always a tough time in terms of student ministry, because it's the transition from, from summer and Summer availability and [00:11:00] getting to be with your kids a lot to Coordinating schedules thinking of events coming up with times for events that that don't conflict with other things That is the most stressful part of what I do.
Kelsey Taylor: That's hard.
Trey Johnson: Yeah, I operate more better in a Fixed structure, whenever I know what's going to happen, whenever I have to make the structure, brings me a lot of anxiety because I'm not that, that's not the way my mind naturally flows or works.
Kelsey Taylor: Right. And I imagine from a nine perspective, that's, there's so much decision fatigue with even just one event where you have to plan. There's so many things to decide.
Trey Johnson: There's that, but even in terms of that. So like whenever you make an event and someone has a Game or another event that conflicts with that and you're following, you have to follow through with it because it's like, this has been on the schedule for a while and I'm sorry, you can't come.
That's, that's the worst part is because whenever we schedule things out, we [00:12:00] do it for fellowship. We do it for opportunities to grow together as a group. And so you know. Being a nine, I hate whenever people feel left out in that way because they have other commitments elsewhere.
Kelsey Taylor: Yep. Does that make you resent the other commitments at all? Do you, like, I, as a one, I could find myself being like, I freaking hate football. It takes the kids away from the church and me, like, I get frustrated.
Trey Johnson: It's easy to get in that sort of mindset, in that mold sometimes, but I think more so I hate that circumstance of you can't do this with us and that, that sucks because we want all of our students to be together all the time.
Kelsey Taylor: And be included. Yeah. Absolutely. That's well said. I love that. Okay, we've talked a lot about Enneagram 9. So for those of you who are listening, if you're not familiar, the Enneagram 9 is known as the peacekeeper, sometimes also the peacemaker, and the core motivation for them is to have internal peace of mind and external peace with [00:13:00] their surroundings, wherever they're at.
They want to be comfortable. They want everybody to get along. They are very easygoing, and they're known as the sweethearts on the Enneagram. The core fear for them is conflict of any kind. It doesn't matter what it is, just conflict in general because they want everybody to be happy. They are the best example of don't rock the boat.
And for them, the core weakness is sloth. And it's not that nines are lazy. It is that they are slow to wake up to what they want. And so that's where the sloth comes into play for them. It's easy for them to merge with other people and let other people make the decisions. In fact, sometimes that's helpful for nines.
If you're going to make the decision, you're giving them a gift in a lot of times. However, when it's at the risk of the nine waking up to their own desires, that's when it becomes detrimental. And so the work for the nine is to spend some time thinking. What is it that I want to achieve in life? And the worldview for them is that it's not okay to assert yourself.
[00:14:00] And for nines, it just means if they have an opinion and they think it's going to offend somebody, they're not going to say that opinion. They're not going to speak it out loud because it's just not worth again, ruffling the feathers. The wings for the nine we'll get in in just a moment, but I think that's a good introduction for nine.
So Jamie, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're an Enneagram nine?
Jamie Roucloux: Oh, the ways. Laughter Oh, I mean everything you just said is so accurate. The avoidance of Conflict, sometimes decisions are hard because I can see too many perspectives of everybody else and so it's hard to pull a trigger and just wanting everybody to get along.
There were even TV shows that I'm like, I don't know if I can watch this because everybody, there's so much angst and it, it's just a lot.
Kelsey Taylor: Don't watch The Bear.
Jamie Roucloux: I did. And you know what? Actually, I found that show specifically hard to watch, but healing because they're all still [00:15:00] are okay. So it's almost like good to watch the conflict and then still everybody be okay.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that.
Jamie Roucloux: It didn't end anybody's existence. Right. Exactly.
Trey Johnson: I still need to watch it.
Jamie Roucloux: You definitely should. Just know that you might be a little anxious for a while.
Trey Johnson: Jamie, are you an Office fan?
Jamie Roucloux: I am an Office fan.
Trey Johnson: Did the dinner party episode give you anxiety?
Jamie Roucloux: Okay, remind me which one that... Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely, yes.
Trey Johnson: Me too.
Kelsey Taylor: That was the worst.
Trey Johnson: It's hilarious. It's hilarious and also very uncomfortable to watch. I say that like I know all nines for this, this nine speaking right now.
Jamie Roucloux: Yes,
Kelsey Taylor: it's probably true for a lot of nines, but I would agree. All right, Trey. How do you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you're an Enneagram 9?
Trey Johnson: Well, you know, I like naps and I don't like deciding where to eat at restaurants. Oh, yes. I'm told that. My wife, Kelsey, is a huge fan of the Enneagram. And so she gave me this webpage. I don't even remember what website it was, but it had all of the [00:16:00] types. And it was just like three to four sentences of just very, very basic summary of what they are.
I was going through all of them, and in every single one, I thought I was. It's you get to type two and you're like, Oh yeah, I want to be helpful. This is, yeah, I want to help people. That's, that's why I became a minister. This is, this is totally me. And then you go on down and be like, Oh, number four, this is the individualist.
I want to, I want to be, I want to be recognized. I want to be unique. And then I got to the nine and I read it and this was the first one that I read and I related to in a uncomfortable way, in a very convicting way. And I was just, it was like one of those things, like whenever you sit in a church service and the pastor just like read your mail from the, from the thing and you're like, does he like, Like, talking about a counseling session I had with him, like, it was that, it was that sort of feeling.
It was just like, I, I don't like this. And then the very last line, Kelsey, this is so funny, it's the very last line said, and typically type nines can see themselves [00:17:00] in all the other types. And it was like. Well, I guess so so that's it because apparently I was empathizing with all the people that were yes each type as I was reading These things so because I could see Their point of view and see how people would desire that or people would want that I could totally be attractive I could see how that could be very fearful.
Yes, and so I was like, I guess this is who I am Yeah
Kelsey Taylor: How do you see the nine show up at work for you guys, like this ability to see multiple perspectives and the ability to emphasize, sometimes maybe be slow to make a decision to avoid hurting feelings? How does that show up for y'all?
Jamie Roucloux: We have clients that we work with externally, and then we have a team that does all of the day to day work.
And I also serve in a leadership position. We're a small company, so I wear many hats, but when we talk about like, Coming to a decision about something. I find that I'm always the person that's saying, okay, well, I see what you're saying, [00:18:00] but also let's think about you know, our employee over here who has to, is doing the work.
And also let's think about our client and how we serve them best or how we don't disappoint. That just ends up being my role of like, Bringing in my perspective of what I perceive everybody's perspective to be.
Kelsey Taylor: That's wonderful. Because then you make better decisions that work for everybody, not just what works for that one situation.
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that. Trey, how about you?
Trey Johnson: In student ministry, I don't know a way that someone who's at a place in life that I'm at can really relate to. In the, in the literal sense to what teenagers today are going through, it's a very different world, but I can empathize on an emotional level with all of my students, even if we've had various different backgrounds and even different home situations, and that's really, I think, helped me connect with them on a more [00:19:00] deeper level.
The first thing they always tell you about ministry is nobody cares what you know until they know that you care, and so I've really taken that to look at ministry as an investment in my students or whoever, whoever I'm ministering to into their lives personally, and that investment is a emotional and spiritual one.
I feel strangely equipped for that.
Kelsey Taylor: That's a gift in itself and an ability for both of y'all to bring your ability to see multiple perspectives, to help make really good decisions in the workplace, and for you, Trey, to help build strong connections with the people so that they know just how much you care about them.
Trey Johnson: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: That's great. Okay, let's talk about the one wing. Let's start with that one. So the one is the perfectionist, their desire is to be good above reproach, their fear is being morally corrupt or bad, making mistakes. And then the weakness for them is resentment. And it usually comes in the form of wanting everybody to do [00:20:00] the right thing and getting frustrated when they don't including themselves.
There's a loud inner critic that Ones have. And so I'm curious to see if you have more of a One wing or an Eight wing, but I'll come back to that in a second for now. Do you see your One wing show up at work at all? And if so, where?
Jamie Roucloux: Absolutely. So what we do is very niche, very specialized, very detailed.
And that's what we pride our company on is being in the details for the developer so that they can. Do their developer y job and we take care of the details.
Kelsey Taylor: Developer y job, I love that.
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah, I don't know what all that entails, but.
Kelsey Taylor: It's important.
Jamie Roucloux: We do the, the grunt work of keeping track of all the details for them.
And so I definitely see that perfectionism come out and I think that's part of the reason I probably really like what I do is because I get to flex that perfectionist muscle. But sometimes it does play out where like I've made a mistake and I have to really think like, okay. These are homes, nobody's life has been ruined.
Kelsey Taylor: [00:21:00] Nobody died.
Jamie Roucloux: Nobody died. We're probably not getting sued, it's going to be okay. And just learning to own up to a mistake and say, yeah, let's figure out how to move forward and fix it.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that. That's great. Trey, how about you? Do you see that one wing show up?
Trey Johnson: Yeah. In a couple different ways. So there's a very practical way and then there's more of a, I think, a philosophical way.
The practical way is that I function way better on the administrative side of ministry in a given structure. Whenever I know what the task is, I know the methodology of doing the task, and I'm able to do it, and it's like, that's the right way. Like, that's the way that I was taught, that's the way they're expecting it.
And then the more on the philosophical side just the, the idea of good, of a right way, of a good way in ministry, it's really helped and empower me to move past my more unhealthy nine tendencies, and that is to stray away from things [00:22:00] that cause conflict or things that, to put it in Christian terms conviction in others.
Kelsey Taylor: Right.
Trey Johnson: And so this idea of, of holding to a standard for, cause as a believer, my standard is Christ. My standard is Jesus. My standard is how the gospel presents how life should be. Not biological life, but Zoe life, the way life is intended to be.
Kelsey Taylor: Right.
Trey Johnson: And that The Christian conviction is that is pursued in, in likeness with Christ and being in step with who Jesus is and how Jesus works and whenever you're studying the Bible what Jesus has done for us and in Leading others into that direction and leading students to really internalize that for what that means in their life as well So it's wonderful.
Kelsey Taylor: That's great explanation All right, let's talk about the Eight wing. So the eight's known as the challenger and the Nine with the Eight wing is one of my favorite combinations because the Nine is conflict avoidant and [00:23:00] the Eight is the total opposite end of the spectrum. They have no problem engaging in conflict and in many ways it does not bother them in the same way it bothers most other enneagram types.
They are motivated by a desire to be strong. They fear being vulnerable or weak. They fear betrayal. And then the weakness for them is a lust. And it's not a sexual lust necessarily. It can be, but more so this lust for intensity. They like to know that you can hold your own against them. They want to know that you're willing to get in the boxing ring with them.
And that feels like they can trust you and it feels like intimacy for them. So they have no problem pushing back if they have an opinion, you know what it is. Again, opposite end of the spectrum for the Nine.
Jamie Roucloux: Mm-hmm.
Kelsey Taylor: Who says if I have an opinion, I'm gonna hold that to myself.
Trey Johnson: Mm-hmm.
Kelsey Taylor: The eight is like, I have an opinion and you're gonna know about it. So , do y'all see the eight show up at work for you guys at all?
Jamie Roucloux: So for me, I feel like it's a newer thing.
Kelsey Taylor: Nice.
Jamie Roucloux: I think [00:24:00] because this is the job I've been in the longest, I've become the most comfortable with the team that I am working with, and it is something personally I am trying to work on growing, but I feel like it typically comes out when I feel like I've been backed into a corner.
Kelsey Taylor: Hmm.
Jamie Roucloux: If I feel like I've tried to assert myself as You know, in my nine sense of, do you think that maybe we could look at this this way? But if I feel like I have not been heard or like we really have to look at X, Y, and Z, or we really have to do something about this and nobody really seems to be listening, I feel like I get to a breaking point and then the eight comes out.
And that makes it sound like it's a really negative thing. And I always feel like it is, you know especially if I'm in a meeting and I'm like, okay, we've, we've got to stop here's, here's my perspective. Please hear me now. Yes. But then, you know, I look back later and I typically. in true nine fashion, then I have to apologize.
Like, I'm sorry that I'm sorry that I [00:25:00] asserted this.
Kelsey Taylor: Sorry that you're being so mean that I had to respond so hard or so directly.
Jamie Roucloux: Yes. Yeah. So in true nine fashion, then I apologize for it. But typically what I have found is. Because when I get to that apology, people are like, you don't need to apologize.
You were speaking your mind. Internally, I perceive it to be like this Eight monster coming out and like I'm doing something wrong, but I'm finding more and more that it's maybe a strength.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that.
Trey Johnson: That's an interesting take on it, the Eight monster, is that, and that's how you feel. Because I wanted to ask you this question, Kelsey, because you're, you're the expert here.
Kelsey Taylor: We'll see.
Trey Johnson: How would you like, Conceptualize the difference between like an Eight with a Nine wing and a Nine with an Eight wing. Is it really that kind of response afterwards of like, Oh, you're a Nine, definitely a Nine with an Eight wing because you have the, you have the conflict, you have the confrontation, right?
And then you're like, all right, now I need to do damage control.
Jamie Roucloux: Right.
Trey Johnson: I do not like the way I handled that.
Kelsey Taylor: 100%. Yeah. [00:26:00] Absolutely. The Eight does not care, typically. If they're healthy, they understand how to engage conflict in a way that they are letting other people not get trampled by them. If they're unhealthy, they're like, you don't mean anything to me.
It doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. They have no desire to apologize and healthy Eight might not even apologize, but they will take the time to, for them, damage control is, I blew up. And now I realize that it's affecting our relationship and I care enough about the relationship to mend that. They probably won't apologize unless they're just really, really healthy.
But I think it comes back to the motivation of the eight being wanting control and wanting to make sure nobody is controlling them. Right. And the nine wanting to make sure everybody's okay. So nines are absolutely going to apologize if they feel like they've ruffled feathers. Yeah. Great. distinction, I think, between the two.
Good question.
So a [00:27:00] nine to be able to say, yeah, you've really got to have hard conversations or I'm going to step into a role where I know I'm going to have hard conversations is not something that they intuitively are drawn towards. Did you have that demonstrated for you from your parents to where it was like, hard conversations are important, they have to happen. Or do you just feel like the Lord has just pulled you in that? Or is that your Eight wing?
Trey Johnson: I think it may be a combination of, of all of the above, for discipline reasons. Everything I did was never just a infraction of the rules that were set before us, but a reflection on my spiritual life.
And that's always fun.
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah,
Trey Johnson: I'm sure Jamie
Jamie Roucloux: It's a fun weight to bear.
Trey Johnson: It's a fun thing in a unique parenting style, having a pastor for a parent.
Jamie Roucloux: Absolutely.
Trey Johnson: It causes you to intuitively grow this sense of we are spiritual beings. We are not, the things we do with our body are not just a reflection on the things we do with our body.
Kelsey Taylor: Right.
Trey Johnson: They are [00:28:00] a reflection of. What we believe in the decisions that we make that lead us to this place or to that place. And that I think has really helped me grasp conflict because I see that in everybody now, and I see that through everybody's decisions. And so speaking truth into those things and shining a light.
To people about this is why this is happening to you. This is why you choose this. This is what and this is how God can redeem you. This is how the Lord can bring healing to you. That's the big thing that
Kelsey Taylor: that's the beauty of the gospel.
Trey Johnson: It is. It is. I'm not here to shame you. I'm here to help you step into a better life, Yeah so I guess you can say I was bred to have an 8 wing. Thanks, dad.
Kelsey Taylor: All that said, do you think you are more developed in your 1 wing or your 8 wing? And I have a guess. I can guess now if y'all want to know what.
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah, you go ahead.
Kelsey Taylor: Okay.
Jamie Roucloux: You guess it.
Kelsey Taylor: Hands down, because I know you so well, more developed in the one [00:29:00] wing.
Jamie Roucloux: Absolutely.
Kelsey Taylor: And I think the friendship that we've had, we've appreciated that overlap of the oneness and the nineness in each other.
Jamie Roucloux: Yes. Yep.
Kelsey Taylor: I would say eight wing for you.
Trey Johnson: You think so?
Kelsey Taylor: And I have a specific story of why.
Trey Johnson: Okay.
Kelsey Taylor: So, when y'all had Ollie, who can go by Olivia. If she wants to, I came over to help Kelsey with breastfeeding and you're in the room and I could feel the dad presence. And I was like, this is a protector. This guy does not play. You didn't have to say anything. I could feel it. And I did not know.
Trey Johnson: I didn't make you feel bad, did I?
Kelsey Taylor: Oh, no.
Trey Johnson: Okay, good.
Kelsey Taylor: No, I could just feel like the protector vibes of like, this is my wife, this is my kid. And maybe I misinterpreted what it was, but I could very much, I was like, this, these girls are going to want for nothing.
These girls are going to be well taken care of. And so that's why I would guess Eight wing.
Trey Johnson: Well, that's very sweet of you. Again, whenever I think about the hierarchy of what others need, it's, it's, I mean, it's always the Eight wing is the [00:30:00] Comfort Seeker for the, for the Nine. I very rarely ever view that as, as something that I need until it happens.
I need to say this. And it's, I need, I need this person to it. at least hear this. This may be the first time in their life that they actually are confronted in this way. And so I don't, I don't know if that's the eight wing or the one wing because I, I feel like that is a internal goodness chart in me that is like, this is the highest value and this is what this person needs to hear. And if I don't say it, I will regret it.
Kelsey Taylor: I think that's a really good blend of both.
Trey Johnson: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: All right, I want to end our time together with giving y'all an opportunity to share some advice for Enneagram Nines. What is it that you wish that you knew earlier or you can share something that you have learned and that you want to pass along that wisdom?
I think sometimes People are listening and [00:31:00] they are looking for advice on how to engage with a Nine. So if you have something like, here's what you should know about nines that most people misunderstand or that I wish people knew about me, all of those would be good.
Jamie Roucloux: Don't be afraid to speak up.
Asserting yourself like we talked about in The Bear like there are so many other different types of people that conflict doesn't bother them near as much and you are more sensitive to it. And that is a gift. It's not a hindrance speak your mind. It is more than likely not going to cause a relationship to end.
And because of the way that the Nine operates, we tend to have the strength of doing it in a really healthy way, bringing about what we want to say. So I think that's something that I'm still personally working on. And it's been really important to me, but also really empowering to see that, like in a work setting, in a personal setting, if I really feel strongly about something and I voice it, Typically, it goes well, and [00:32:00] even though there's those like feelings of anxiety of, or knowing I've got to say this, or else I'm going to have internal chaos, it's still once you get to the other side of it, it's worth it.
Your opinion and your thoughts matter.
And you know what? Every once in a while, pick where you want to eat. Even though most of the time it usually doesn't matter, sometimes make your opinion heard.
Kelsey Taylor: I love that. The one time it does matter. Yeah.
Jamie Roucloux: It's okay to say it. Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: Trey, how about you? What advice do you have?
Trey Johnson: It's important to press a nine for an opinion if you know that it's there and that they're not contributing to it. Because the way The Nine brain works. It is for your benefit and the benefit of your team, because they will, they are the ones who can see the perspective of, of the people around them.
With that, this disclaimer, if you have a Nine, In your life, and you're going to [00:33:00] press them for their opinion, prepare yourself. Because they have, Nines voice their opinion in a way that is the most comfortable for them, in the most way that they think will land the best for you. When pressed, we haven't had that opportunity yet.
Kelsey Taylor: Okay.
Trey Johnson: And so, the truth of what we say may not land or hit the way that it was intended. If you're nine, don't let your eight wing be your accuser and your Nine wing be your judge.
Kelsey Taylor: Okay, I'm going to sum that up just to make sure I'm tracking. So when you say your Eight wing as the accuser and your Nineness as the judge, I was thinking...
Trey Johnson: The One wing as the judge.
Kelsey Taylor: The One wing, got it. Okay. I was thinking... Externally, like you're accusing others and you're judging others, but you are thinking internally.
Trey Johnson: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: I'm accusing myself and I am judging myself.
Trey Johnson: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: That's fascinating. I [00:34:00] think that's super helpful to hear that. I think every Enneagram type is hardest on themselves than they are on other people, but I think some people can miss that from the nines because they are so easy going that we just assume everything's good with you too.
Trey Johnson: Yeah.
Kelsey Taylor: So I appreciate a peek into that. Jamie, do you resonate with accusing yourself and judging yourself?
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah. I had never thought about it in that way, but yeah, that's. Pretty spot on. Thank you for summarizing that.
Trey Johnson: This is why we're Nines with these wings and not ones with a Nine wing or Eight with a Nine wing is because that external part, we do our internal filter to keep, to keep ourselves from doing that.
If what I'm going to say to you sounds judgmental. I'm just not going to say it, or if what I'm saying to you sounds like I'm accusing you, I'm just not going to say it because I'm a Nine and I, and I value our relationship more than whatever it is I have to say. But if I walk away and there is something that you needed to hear, that I know you needed.[00:35:00]
And I didn't say it. That's that's my me judging myself. That's me accusing myself being like You were afraid of what this would do to your relationship not knowing that every relationship is meant to evolve and change As you interact with people you want to keep the peace of the relationship that you have now and you forsook What could real the opportunity to grow?
Kelsey Taylor: Yeah
Trey Johnson: Or to speak life into this person, or to speak something into this person that would ultimately be for their benefit because of your fear.
Kelsey Taylor: That's beautiful. That's so good. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today.
Jamie Roucloux: Yeah, thanks for having us.
Kelsey Taylor: Hey, thanks so much for listening to this conversation with Enneagram Nine's Trey and Jamie. We hope you enjoyed diving into the world of the Type Nine and their work dynamics. And a huge shout out to our amazing listeners. Thank you so much for your patience, as this episode was [00:36:00] published later than expected.
This past month I lost my grandmother, and ten days later I lost my uncle as well. And many of you have reached out with your prayers, and I just want to say thank you. It's been a tough season, but people like you sure make it easier. If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to show some love.
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